D&D 5E No Magic Shops!

[Cap'n Kobold]

It's not really much of an exception, since it fits directly in with the rules on page 135 of the DMG. It sells a few minor things, but rarer items aren't for sale. I guess it's somewhat of an exception in that it specifies it where the other modules don't, but since the rules specify it, those other modules can have places like that, too if the DM wants.

I mostly meant in terms of its location and situation. It is pretty much the sole effective entrance to the island. Much of the traffic utilising it are adventurers, and elite military or special troops: not only a much higher proportion of 'PC-classed' customers, but also of generally higher level than most other settlements would see. - The type of people most likely to buy magic items rather than artwork or trade goods.

Most of these adventurer types are travelling into the jungle, towards the ruins. These are both highly hostile environments with many supernatural threats as well as the native dangers. - The sort of situation where buying magic is actually worthwhile compared to simply hiring 20 more mercenaries.

If anywhere is going to cater to such an adventurer-specific economy as selling magic items, it will be that city.

 

[CapnZapp]

Really, you guys amaze me. With your ability to misread arguments in order to create quests you can insta-win, I mean. (Welcome to the interwebs, Capn, I guess)

In no particular order...

"I don't want magic shoppes" - congrats, nobody was trying to force them into your game. As long as you don't actively want to deny others their official-but-optional magic shoppe support, we have no beef.

"[insert edition here] does / does not feature magic shoppes" - irrelevant. If Gamer Bob WANTS to feature them, a game that supports this is better than a game that does not. Do not contest this unless you're willing to be sorted into "I actively want your play style to be boycotted" category!

"[insert campaign world here] does / does not feature magic shoppes" - irrelevant. The only argument against Gamer Sue inserting magic shoppes into her Conan or My Little Pony world is equivalent to "you're playing the game badwrongfun". Don't do that.

"5th edition already supports magic item prices" - I call BS. Either you haven't the foggiest clue, or you are deliberately spreading FUD. Rarity based pricing is useless if your aim is to allow players to convert gold into magic item power. A fundamental property is that more powerful items cost more gold. If you don't agree to this, you're arguing in bad faith, since the subject is the functional magic shoppes *I* want, and not the broken shoppes *you* want me to have - especially if you have no intention of featuring any shoppes yourself.

Now:
1) D&D used to support magic shoppes (specifically, utility-based pricing and creation). Fact. For close to twenty years of active support too, if you count Pathfinder as a 3rd edition successor.
2) Many gamers loved this aspect of D&D and found it integral to the experience, as well as providing a superb answer to the otherwise unanswered question "but what should we do with all the gold if we don't want any downtime?"
3) The biggest deficiency in 5th edition's official legacy support is arguably its lack of utility-based magic prices

Therefore. You don't have to like it or buy it, and nobody will come to your house and make it "core", but if you want to deny me my official 3E-style magic item pricing and creation framework, please consult the following image.

 

[delericho]

Now:
1) D&D used to support magic shoppes (specifically, utility-based pricing and creation). Fact. For close to twenty years of active support too, if you count Pathfinder as a 3rd edition successor.
2) Many gamers loved this aspect of D&D and found it integral to the experience, as well as providing a superb answer to the otherwise unanswered question "but what should we do with all the gold if we don't want any downtime?"
3) The biggest deficiency in 5th edition's official legacy support is arguably its lack of utility-based magic prices

Therefore. You don't have to like it or buy it, and nobody will come to your house and make it "core"...

While I don't take issue with anything you've said, I find myself wondering: does the "Sane Item Pricing" lists not fulfil your needs? (Or, at least, get you a long way towards that target.)

Or are you of the view that nothing other than a printed book from WotC will do the job? (That latter is a position I can understand - I'm of much the same view when it comes to some of the things I want from the game. So I'm just asking.)

Apologies if you've already answered this - it's a long thread, so I've missed some stuff.

 

[Krachek]

I think WOTC should apologise for ruining the economy of many worlds by providing such a crappy and inaccurate magic item price list.
And we should not forget all kingdoms that were invaded or defeated because they used inaccurate information for their military contract.

 

[Caliban]

I think WOTC should apologise for ruining the economy of many worlds by providing such a crappy and inaccurate magic item price list.
And we should not forget all kingdoms that were invaded or defeated because they used inaccurate information for their military contract.

#FictionalLivesMatter

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using EN World mobile app

 

[Guest 6801328]

Really, you guys amaze me. With your ability to misread arguments in order to create quests you can insta-win, I mean. (Welcome to the interwebs, Capn, I guess)

In no particular order...

"I don't want magic shoppes" - congrats, nobody was trying to force them into your game. As long as you don't actively want to deny others their official-but-optional magic shoppe support, we have no beef.

"[insert edition here] does / does not feature magic shoppes" - irrelevant. If Gamer Bob WANTS to feature them, a game that supports this is better than a game that does not. Do not contest this unless you're willing to be sorted into "I actively want your play style to be boycotted" category!

"[insert campaign world here] does / does not feature magic shoppes" - irrelevant. The only argument against Gamer Sue inserting magic shoppes into her Conan or My Little Pony world is equivalent to "you're playing the game badwrongfun". Don't do that.

"5th edition already supports magic item prices" - I call BS. Either you haven't the foggiest clue, or you are deliberately spreading FUD. Rarity based pricing is useless if your aim is to allow players to convert gold into magic item power. A fundamental property is that more powerful items cost more gold. If you don't agree to this, you're arguing in bad faith, since the subject is the functional magic shoppes *I* want, and not the broken shoppes *you* want me to have - especially if you have no intention of featuring any shoppes yourself.

Now:
1) D&D used to support magic shoppes (specifically, utility-based pricing and creation). Fact. For close to twenty years of active support too, if you count Pathfinder as a 3rd edition successor.
2) Many gamers loved this aspect of D&D and found it integral to the experience, as well as providing a superb answer to the otherwise unanswered question "but what should we do with all the gold if we don't want any downtime?"
3) The biggest deficiency in 5th edition's official legacy support is arguably its lack of utility-based magic prices

Therefore. You don't have to like it or buy it, and nobody will come to your house and make it "core", but if you want to deny me my official 3E-style magic item pricing and creation framework, please consult the following image.

View attachment 93514

Oh, please.

This is a forum for debating ideas around D&D. "I don't like magic shops and here is why..." is an entirely appropriate contribution. Also, people can prefer that WotC spend their time and page count on things they would use, without it being an attempt to dictate how others play.

None of us work for WotC. We are not going to influence whether or not WotC actually makes optional/official magic item prices. We're just debating gaming philosophy.

Really, your post amounts to "If you don't want magic shops then don't participate in this thread."

EDIT: Here's another way of thinking about it. The thread could be asking two questions:
1) It's asking if magic shops benefit the game, in which case all opinions/reasons are valid.
2) It's asking if you think magic shops should be included officially in the game. If this is what it's asking, but all answers of "no" are not welcome, then why even have the thread?

 

[Swarmkeeper]

Here's someone who has thought a bit about the topic...

http://www.runagame.net/2017/07/magic-item-shops.html


For my part, I'm glad I have the discretion as DM to determine whether a certain merchant may or may not have magic items for sale. So far, I've decided to allow the purchase of potions of healing in most dense settlements, some uncommon potions in an alchemist's shoppe, a scimitar that is +1 against goblinoids from a blacksmith with whom the PCs had done a fair amount of business already, and a few other assorted scrolls and minor items in a black market speakeasy. It hasn't broken the game but I suppose I am more of a traditionalist in that I prefer the PCs to find the really good stuff while out on their adventures.

 

[Tallifer]

I like the traditional magic shoppe where the character wanders into a shoppe and roleplays through a conversation with a crazy NPC who offers a variety of maybe useless and maybe wonderful objects, not a customized wish shop. Also a good place to fence loot.

 

[Guest 6801328]

You know what, I just thought of a reason why I do oppose the inclusion of "optional" modules that conflict with my preferred playstyle. Or, I should say, a reason for opposition that has long be lurking in my subconscious has finally bubbled to the surface.

I was thinking about why on earth anybody would want magic shops in the first place. Or maybe not literally shops filled with magic items, but a mechanism by which players can pick and choose which items they want.

When I came back to D&D during Next, the conversation was still a hybrid between Next and 4e, and I was confused about all this talk about character "builds" that included specific magic items. I was thinking it was pretty dumb to build a character around some specific magic items when you probably wouldn't ever get those items. Foolish me. I didn't realize that in 4e you could buy whatever items you wanted. ("What is this, World of Warcraft?" I thought.) Essentially it's a powergamer's wet dream.

Ok, so, now we're in 5e and there a bunch of players clamoring for magic shops. Why? I presume it's because they played 4e and got used to picking and choosing magic items. They like playing that way and want to continue, which is totally valid.

What happens if we provide 'optional' rules for buying magic items? It would make those people happy, which is a good thing, but it will also teach a whole bunch of new players (and, face it, old players are outnumbered by new players) that such a thing is part of D&D, and many of them may get seduced by the powergamey aspect of it. In effect, it may begin to normalize magic shops, which would bode poorly for future supplements as well as 6e.

Although I do want everybody to be able to play the way they want, I have an even greater desire for the game to go in directions that I personally like. I do see a conflict between the two. I don't want to dictate how you play the game, but I also don't want the way you play the game (when it conflicts with mine) to become the standard.

So, yeah, I do hope they never release any "official but optional" magic shop rules. Or even "unofficial" if it has the WotC logo on it. (Or Warlords.) Sorry. Nuthin' personal.

 

[Satyrn]

I like the traditional magic shoppe where the character wanders into a shoppe and roleplays through a conversation with a crazy NPC who offers a variety of maybe useless and maybe wonderful objects

I remember a goofy gnome shopkeeper who needed a ladder to reach any item in his shop, including the door to his back room.