D&D 2E What PF2E means for D&D5E

[Aldarc]

Of course if that was in 5e that would make the artificer a cha user instead of an int user (forcing the magic into an item instead of "programming" it in).....

Maybe. It is also possible that some classes could have ways to replace Charisma with another stat (e.g., Intelligence) for their resonance. The Alchemist is probably the class referenced in this other quote:

"The way Resonance works came partially from the occultist because he defines the in-world concept of putting a piece of yourself into items to power them. As we do in many places, we’re expanding a PF1 concept by exploring its broader implications in our world. If we keep this system, the occultist would have new and more versatile ways to use his Resonance, just like a certain other class in the book!"

 

[pogre]

The strength of Paizo has always been their Adventure Paths. I always thought the rules were made just to enable them to keep cranking out quality adventures.

Now, I know Pathfinder has moved well beyond just having rules to support their adventures, but the first couple of Adventure Paths released under the new rules will determine if I invest in the system.

I ran a Pathfinder campaign a few years ago so that I could run one of their adventure paths. I did not run their adventure because I loved their rules.

I realize I can convert Pathfinder adventures to 5e, but by the time I make that investment I may as well just keep writing my own stuff.

 

[Shasarak]

Resonance sounds like a particularly bad idea.

I keep hearing ways that designers want to limit magical items and every one of them seems to be worse then the proceeding one. Its almost like a race to the bottom who comes up with the worst idea. So bravo Paizo!

 

[GreyLord]

Having listened to Paizo discuss 5e, it's pretty clear they haven't played much 5e at all... if any. Trying to use 5e as the basis would be problematic since they would first have to learn the game. It's simply an example of parallel design, possibly mixed with people on their forums discussing 5e elements.

LOL.

Unified progression. Atunement...I mean...Resonance. Spellcasting similarities. Death saves. It just keeps adding and adding up. (Granted, XP is different, I'll laugh if they have pre-requisites for multiclassing similar to 5e though).

Too many coincidences. When it gets to that point, as they say in Hollywood...there is no parallel development. Everyone copies everyone else's ideas. There's a reason movies with very similar plots come out almost around the same time (volcano movies, asteroid hits the earth movies, etc...etc...etc). When things start looking like someone took ideas from someone else...normally...that means they did.

Hey...that's a good thing for D&D. when someone takes your idea and thinks they have their own houserules to try to make it better...that's one way of praise.

Copycatting is a very extreme way of praise, but it still is there. When others try to copycat your ideas and then put their own spin on the rules...it shows you've really made it in some instances.

D&D from the 70s and 80s had it by a dozen (rolemaster for starters and that entire line of trying to improve D&D), Palladium/Rifts...etc...etc...etc. I'd say Paizo is doing it now.

It's funny how Paizo is trying to turn contortions around itself to claim they haven't copied 5e when it's pretty blatant they took the chasis and are putting their own shell over it. Should be apparent to anyone who's ever played 5e...not that it should bother us. It should be an honor someone thinks the system is that wonderful that they need to take the framework and put their own wheels on it.

Funny to see people trying to deny it as the evidence just keep seemingly mounts up in that regards. More and more stuff just seems to be "parallel" to 5e...probably because it's more than paralleled...it's ripped right off of it and then modified to be slightly different (well, sometimes...sometimes it's just about exactly the same).

Unless, of course, they are taking it from 4e and modifying it...but I think the Pathfinder fans may find that even more horrifying to their collective repulsions.

 

[Jester David]

LOL.

Unified progression. Atunement...I mean...Resonance. Spellcasting similarities. Death saves. It just keeps adding and adding up. (Granted, XP is different, I'll laugh if they have pre-requisites for multiclassing similar to 5e though).

Too many coincidences. When it gets to that point, as they say in Hollywood...there is no parallel development. Everyone copies everyone else's ideas. There's a reason movies with very similar plots come out almost around the same time (volcano movies, asteroid hits the earth movies, etc...etc...etc). When things start looking like someone took ideas from someone else...normally...that means they did.

Hey...that's a good thing for D&D. when someone takes your idea and thinks they have their own houserules to try to make it better...that's one way of praise.

Copycatting is a very extreme way of praise, but it still is there. When others try to copycat your ideas and then put their own spin on the rules...it shows you've really made it in some instances.

D&D from the 70s and 80s had it by a dozen (rolemaster for starters and that entire line of trying to improve D&D), Palladium/Rifts...etc...etc...etc. I'd say Paizo is doing it now.

It's funny how Paizo is trying to turn contortions around itself to claim they haven't copied 5e when it's pretty blatant they took the chasis and are putting their own shell over it. Should be apparent to anyone who's ever played 5e...not that it should bother us. It should be an honor someone thinks the system is that wonderful that they need to take the framework and put their own wheels on it.

Funny to see people trying to deny it as the evidence just keep seemingly mounts up in that regards. More and more stuff just seems to be "parallel" to 5e...probably because it's more than paralleled...it's ripped right off of it and then modified to be slightly different (well, sometimes...sometimes it's just about exactly the same).

Unless, of course, they are taking it from 4e and modifying it...but I think the Pathfinder fans may find that even more horrifying to their collective repulsions.

What you discuss is selection bias. You expect them to be copying 5e so that's what you see.

The thing is, I’ve read a few interviews with Paizo staff and they get stuff wrong when they talk about 5e. Like, embrassingly wrong. Recalling something the half read on a message board six months back type wrong.

If they were actually looking at 5e, I think things would be a lot smoother. Resonance seems like the most awkward way of implementing a magic item attunement, a more complicated version of 4e's daily magic item rules.

 

[TheCosmicKid]

The thing is, I’ve read a few interviews with Paizo staff and they get stuff wrong when they talk about 5e. Like, embrassingly wrong. Recalling something the half read on a message board six months back type wrong.

Really? That doesn't speak well about them, honestly. This is not an industry in which it is difficult to keep tabs on what your competitors are doing.

 

[GreyLord]

What you discuss is selection bias. You expect them to be copying 5e so that's what you see.

The thing is, I’ve read a few interviews with Paizo staff and they get stuff wrong when they talk about 5e. Like, embrassingly wrong. Recalling something the half read on a message board six months back type wrong.

If they were actually looking at 5e, I think things would be a lot smoother. Resonance seems like the most awkward way of implementing a magic item attunement, a more complicated version of 4e's daily magic item rules.

Look more at the evidence rather than what they say.

This is for the old timers, so maybe the younger ones won't understand this...

Glen Larson to his dying day denied that Star Wars had any impact on Battlestar Galactica or Buck Rogers.

The entire world knows that's probably blatantly untrue. It's NOT what he said...but what we saw. Sure, there were many differences as Glen Larson would have pointed out...but the timing (soon after SW and when SW was big) and the environment (big ships with fighters buzzing all around having fighters shooting at each other and big ships...fighters taking out big ships...etc) screamed it was taken from Star Wars.

Someone can say all they want...no...I didn't do this...but when the evidence points strongly that they DID take something...well...you can either choose to believe them or what the evidence shows.

There's no such thing as parallel development normally. that's normally a bunch of BS. When it occurs in the tech world that means that one side got wind that the other side was doing something. They get a little information on how that works and then start trying to do the same thing themselves. First one to the finishline...wins.

However, when it is this much delayed...it's not even parallel development...it's straight up ripping off an idea and using it as one's own. Ideas that are THAT similar don't just happen. That's not how it occurs in life most of the time.

In movies, and much of the rest of the entertainment world, it's pretty obvious when it occurs as well. Now...sometimes ideas DO happen in parallel...but the way one can tell whether they did or did not is in the details. The MORE items that are similar, and the more similar they are...the far more likely it's a copycat.

You don't just get this many items that similar between games and call it parallel development. It does not happen. If it were far more general ideas...maybe...but with the specifics they've released just this far...no way this is parallel design without them taking ideas directly from 5e. The evidence just keeps mounting up against that.

5e is the Big thing right now (8.6 million gamers in the US...probably at least a million more world wide so over 9 million gamers as per the ENWorld article...yikers...5e is BIG now) and so of course...everyone...probably even Pathfinder...wants a chunk of that pie.

 

[Jester David]

Really? That doesn't speak well about them, honestly. This is not an industry in which it is difficult to keep tabs on what your competitors are doing.

I did roll my eyes. But, honestly, their job is making Pathfinder books. Their work is spent playing Pathfinder and their home games also likely run Pathfinder because that makes their work easier. Running 5e at home makes work harder, as they have to mentally juggle two similar rulesets.

 

[Jester David]

Look more at the evidence rather than what they say.

This is for the old timers, so maybe the younger ones won't understand this...

Glen Larson to his dying day denied that Star Wars had any impact on Battlestar Galactica or Buck Rogers.

The entire world knows that's probably blatantly untrue. It's NOT what he said...but what we saw. Sure, there were many differences as Glen Larson would have pointed out...but the timing (soon after SW and when SW was big) and the environment (big ships with fighters buzzing all around having fighters shooting at each other and big ships...fighters taking out big ships...etc) screamed it was taken from Star Wars.

Someone can say all they want...no...I didn't do this...but when the evidence points strongly that they DID take something...well...you can either choose to believe them or what the evidence shows.

There's no such thing as parallel development normally. that's normally a bunch of BS. When it occurs in the tech world that means that one side got wind that the other side was doing something. They get a little information on how that works and then start trying to do the same thing themselves. First one to the finishline...wins.

However, when it is this much delayed...it's not even parallel development...it's straight up ripping off an idea and using it as one's own. Ideas that are THAT similar don't just happen. That's not how it occurs in life most of the time.

In movies, and much of the rest of the entertainment world, it's pretty obvious when it occurs as well. Now...sometimes ideas DO happen in parallel...but the way one can tell whether they did or did not is in the details. The MORE items that are similar, and the more similar they are...the far more likely it's a copycat.

You don't just get this many items that similar between games and call it parallel development. It does not happen. If it were far more general ideas...maybe...but with the specifics they've released just this far...no way this is parallel design without them taking ideas directly from 5e. The evidence just keeps mounting up against that.

5e is the Big thing right now (8.6 million gamers in the US...probably at least a million more world wide so over 9 million gamers as per the ENWorld article...yikers...5e is BIG now) and so of course...everyone...probably even Pathfinder...wants a chunk of that pie.

Keep in mind that a LOT of the things you declare as “5e rules” actually come from 4e. Like shared proficiencies between attacks, saves, and skills. Fewer magic items, and limiting magic item uses per day. The monster design.
Which also means it pre-dates Pathfinder.

Of course Paizo’s evolution of the 3.x rule set is going to evolve in similar directions to 4e/5e, because it’s responding to the same criticisms.

 

[Swarmkeeper]

It's funny how Paizo is trying to turn contortions around itself to claim they haven't copied 5e when it's pretty blatant they took the chasis and are putting their own shell over it. Should be apparent to anyone who's ever played 5e...not that it should bother us. It should be an honor someone thinks the system is that wonderful that they need to take the framework and put their own wheels on it.

Funny to see people trying to deny it as the evidence just keep seemingly mounts up in that regards. More and more stuff just seems to be "parallel" to 5e...probably because it's more than paralleled...it's ripped right off of it and then modified to be slightly different (well, sometimes...sometimes it's just about exactly the same)..

Not to mention the sudden spike in 5e core book purchases... could that be Paizo buying copies for all their employees working on PF2E???