A discussion of metagame concepts in game design

[Maxperson]

Yes, it was also early in the design phase. Things change. Sometimes best intentions are unworkable.

I can't remember them saying that it had changed, though. If you're going to announce a design idea that you plan on accomplishing, it's probably a good idea to let people know that it was scrapped as unworkable as soon as you realize it.

 

[Ilbranteloth]

The game already reflects poorly on WotC. This is just a semantic question, of how to best classify their folly.

Yeah, while there may be a few that agree with you, the game and edition is selling better and more popular than pretty much any prior one. From WotC’s perspective it is an incredible success and it would appear that there is a significant portion of the gaming community that agrees.

 

[Kobold Boots]

I can't remember them saying that it had changed, though. If you're going to announce a design idea that you plan on accomplishing, it's probably a good idea to let people know that it was scrapped as unworkable as soon as you realize it.

I agree with this in practice, but lets be honest. Either "you're fired" or "I'm outta here" is about as obvious a clue that one can leave for people to figure it out. No one expects a new boss to be the same as the old boss, or a movie to be the same when a director gets fired, so the only reason why anyone should expect nothing to have changed would be naivete.

 

[Kobold Boots]

Yeah, while there may be a few that agree with you, the game and edition is selling better and more popular than pretty much any prior one. From WotC’s perspective it is an incredible success and it would appear that there is a significant portion of the gaming community that agrees.

He's referring to 4e, you're referring to 5e.

 

[Maxperson]

I agree with this in practice, but lets be honest. Either "you're fired" or "I'm outta here" is about as obvious a clue that one can leave for people to figure it out. No one expects a new boss to be the same as the old boss, or a movie to be the same when a director gets fired, so the only reason why anyone should expect nothing to have changed would be naivete.

It's a bit different when it's a team. When he says "We are going to do X," it has the appearance of being more involved than just him. A new boss will also often not change major things. Minor things, sure. Those get changed all over the place, but major pieces will often remain the same as $$$, often significant $$$ have already been spent trying to accomplish those things. I didn't and wouldn't assume that the modular idea was dropped just because of a change in management.

 

[Ilbranteloth]

He's referring to 4e, you're referring to 5e.

Ahhh. It was hard to follow. Thanks for the clarification!

 

[Shasarak]

I'm saying that once we start talking about human-like beings who can nevertheless support their own weight, we're talking about a world which has very different biomecanical proceses from our own. And once we toss in magic, there's no point in even trying to conceive of it as having natural processes in the scientific sense at all.

Some one made the statement that if a Giant stood up then its bones would break under its own weight. And yet you find that bone can support at least 18,000kg of weight, which is much more then required to support a Giant.

So, even without adding in Magic, basic physics already disproves the crippled Giant theory.

Someone said that Giants could not get enough oxygen to breath and yet we already have creatures bigger then Giants that can get enough oxygen to breath.

So, even without adding in Magic, basic physics already disproves the choking Giant theory.

The main problem that I see is that people try to use Magic to explain concepts that basic physics already covers.

 

[Shasarak]

And I've no complaints about WotC breaking any promises. My point was simply that 5e by design will maybe start to undo some of the damage 3e and 4e did in terms of acceptance of house rules and DM rulings.

3e and the d20 system have so many variations built on them that I find it very hard to believe that there was anything intrinsically anti-house rule about it except for the fact that it actually presented a cohesive system rather then a giant grab bag of optional rules.

 

[Emerikol]

I think this thread has devolved into three different threads.

Why don't you guys obsessed with giant's legs go get a thread of your own .

I appreciate the one guys advice but it was mostly "just think about them differently" which wasn't really what I was after in this thread.

As for WOTC, I am still undecided on whether they just chose to ignore us when not ignoring was almost free OR whether they really had no one one staff that fully understood our viewpoint.

When you design a game with essentially built in subclasses, you would think the controversial mechanics would go in the subclasses. You would think you'd then design subclasses that basically appealed to the different styles. By building second wind, action surge, etc. into the base they ruined every subclass. Again who knows what they were thinking. Bawylie in a short time gave an easy option they could have used. So I don't think it is design skill.

And while people who are really bugged by some of these things are rare, the cost to add them to their playerbase is really small.

 

[Ted Serious]

I'm actually not disappointed with 5e - I see it as a rather big improvement on the previous two, in fact.

And I've no complaints about WotC breaking any promises. My point was simply that 5e by design will maybe start to undo some of the damage 3e and 4e did in terms of acceptance of house rules and DM rulings.

Which edition do you actually play?

I don't understand how 3e making the game good enough that you didn't have to house rule it is damage.

Most house rules are bad.
Professionals make better rules than amateurs.
DMs running just so they can impose their house rules probably have some agenda.

If you run and play by RAW you all know what your getting.

The TSR period sounds like the 60s or Episode IV or the golden age of comics or Nirvana.
It's only great if you were there for it.