A discussion of metagame concepts in game design

[pemerton]

I think that depends on what causes that encounter mode. It should be fine if the wizard could say "my spell will end if you attack something, so don't go throwing tomatoes when the bard cracks a joke about joining the mile high club, like we know he will." Or something lke that for each instance that initiates encounter mode.

Regardless of that, I do think it's weird that getting attacked ends a spell lke wind walking. Especially since I just pictured a flock of fiendish seagulls smirking as they watch an adventuring party lift off the ground. One seagull says to another, "We wait until they're way up there, then bomb them with our poop."

Your examples make the point, though - does heckling a performer and throwing a tomato at them count as "encounter mode"?

And for clarity (and with a shoutout to [MENTION=82504]Garthanos[/MENTION]), I've got nothing against RPG mechanics that are based around scenes, including different sorts of scenes - I GM MHRP/Cortex+ Heroic, which uses a contrast between action scenes and transition scenes to manage the progression of ingame events.

But (1) the fact that I don't mind those mechanics doesn't stop them being metagame, and (2) you don't see anything in Cortex+ Heroic, or even (that I recall) in 4e as weird as PF2 Wind Walk:

When you cast this spell, all targets transform into a vaguely cloud-like form and are picked up by a wind moving in the direction of your choice. You can Concentrate on the Spell to change the wind’s direction. The wind carries the targets at a Speed of 20 miles per hour, but if any of the targets make an attack, Cast a Spell, come under attack, or otherwise enter encounter mode, the spell ends for all targets and they drift gently to the ground.​

The targets must be ingame entities, because they are picked up by a wind, and that's clearly not happening in the real world. It follows, therefore, from if any of the targets . . . otherwise enter encounter mode that "entering encounter mode" is something that happens to ingame entities!

Or rather, it follows that the rules are written in a way that runs together the fiction and the mechanics in some weird fashion that doesn't really appeal to me, and surely won't appeal to those who get anxious about "dissociated" mechanics.

 

[Lanefan]

But (1) the fact that I don't mind those mechanics doesn't stop them being metagame, and (2) you don't see anything in Cortex+ Heroic, or even (that I recall) in 4e as weird as PF2 Wind Walk:

When you cast this spell, all targets transform into a vaguely cloud-like form and are picked up by a wind moving in the direction of your choice. You can Concentrate on the Spell to change the wind’s direction. The wind carries the targets at a Speed of 20 miles per hour, but if any of the targets make an attack, Cast a Spell, come under attack, or otherwise enter encounter mode, the spell ends for all targets and they drift gently to the ground.​

Yeah, that's a weird one. The problem is the "come under attack" bit, as the wind-walkers don't have any control over that. The rest kinda works the same as 1e invisibility - you keep it until you perform any offensive action (cast an offensive spell, shoot a missile, melee-attack someone, etc.).

The other weird bit here is that something happening to any target ends the spell for all. I could see this being the case if the caster does something to end it - her concentration is shot and thus the spell ends for all - but not for someone else affected. Pedantic: the use of the words "all targets" implies to me that the spell is targeting each person individually, meaning the loss of effect should also be individual unless the caster loses it...at least, that's how I'd rule it.

 

[Emerikol]

PF2 has a core notion of "encounter mode" which I think is pretty metagame/"dissociative".

Actually, this "mode" as you call it is a DM construct. It's just a way to efficiently manage time and turns appropriately. The character still isn't doing anything the character couldn't do. I think you must really be incapable of understanding what I'm talking about. It's okay. Your usefulness though at solving the problem is probably nil. I still enjoy your comments on these boards in various places a lot so don't take my take on this singular thread as my view of you entirely.

I've downloaded the Pathfinder pdf and I think I will end up going that way. I haven't went through every feat with a fine toothed comb but nothing seems to blatantly punch me in the face right out of the gate. I would change the natural recovery time from level times con modifier to level plus con modifier. That is pretty minor. It is the advantage of being more systematic at the structural level.

 

[Emerikol]

Having your Wind Walk spell end (an ingame event that your PC is fully aware of) because you entered "encounter mode" (which is a purely at-the-table event about mechanics) seems pretty meta to me.

That is more an issue with that power and how it interacts with encounter mode. I agree that is not desirable but the problem is not encounter mode inherently. It's dissociative mechanics abusing the mode.

 

[TheCosmicKid]

But (1) the fact that I don't mind those mechanics doesn't stop them being metagame, and (2) you don't see anything in Cortex+ Heroic, or even (that I recall) in 4e as weird as PF2 Wind Walk:

When you cast this spell, all targets transform into a vaguely cloud-like form and are picked up by a wind moving in the direction of your choice. You can Concentrate on the Spell to change the wind’s direction. The wind carries the targets at a Speed of 20 miles per hour, but if any of the targets make an attack, Cast a Spell, come under attack, or otherwise enter encounter mode, the spell ends for all targets and they drift gently to the ground.​

I'm just thrown for a loop because it says "the spell ends" and then immediately thereafter says the subjects "drift gently to the ground", which is clear indication that some sort of magical effect is still active.

 

[Lanefan]

I'm just thrown for a loop because it says "the spell ends" and then immediately thereafter says the subjects "drift gently to the ground", which is clear indication that some sort of magical effect is still active.

Of course.

Magic comes with training wheels now - didn't they tell you?

 

[pemerton]

I'm just thrown for a loop because it says "the spell ends" and then immediately thereafter says the subjects "drift gently to the ground", which is clear indication that some sort of magical effect is still active.

OK, I think I missed that! But that seems more some sort of infelicity of drafting. Or perhaps "spell" has a technical meaning - eg you can dispel the main effect, but you can't dispel the gentle drifting because its not a spell effect in the technical sense.

 

[TheCosmicKid]

OK, I think I missed that! But that seems more some sort of infelicity of drafting. Or perhaps "spell" has a technical meaning - eg you can dispel the main effect, but you can't dispel the gentle drifting because its not a spell effect in the technical sense.

Really I'm just nitpicking in gentle mockery of what you guys are doing, but to take the silliness seriously: that fine distinction seems directly contrary to what the Paizo guys have stated elsewhere to the effect that "a spell is a spell" (might be paraphrasing).