Missed session catch-up XP

[Oofta]

@iserith,
I reevaluated my position on leveling and XP with 5E and came to the same conclusion and see no reason to change. It's not a "holdover", I don't generally justify my decisions based on an appeal to tradition.

As far as why I choose this direction, I've explained it multiple times now. I also think even a few levels can make a big difference in effectiveness, survivability and ability to significantly contribute even in 5E, which is something I've personally experienced.

 

[iserith]

As to pcs dying in epics in adventure league games. I have played in and dm epics. And talked to other dms. The big reason people die in Adventure League. TEAMWORK FAILURE. Because people and couples go in as individuals, and the rest of the table will not try to do teamwork. My first kill in AL was due to the individuals wanting to kill monsters instead of taking two rounds out to stabilize a team mate. About a third to a half of the names of skully are due lack of team work. Either the group did not gel. Or someone tick the rest of group off and the team let the goober do his own thing and die.

I don't play AL, but on the topic of lack of teamwork, I 100% agree. I run one-shots monthly with pickup groups. Groups like that don't work together well, by and large. So the difficulty level of the challenges shoot up. I could see the same happening in an AL group, if those players don't regularly play together.

I was lurking in a friend's game on Sunday and the pickup group was 3rd level and just getting destroyed by goblins that were working together. What should have been a fairly easy challenge for a cohesive team, these guys and gals were being murdered. Notably, the characters were all the same level.

My friend got the idea for the scenario from a session I ran in Sunless Citadel where I used the same goblin tactics against 1st- and 2nd-level PCs. But this group, comprised mostly of my regulars, works very well together. So as a result, their party - fewer in number and with disparate levels lower than the aforementioned Sunday group - did way better. They did make a fatal mistake tactically that cost them in the end (their own choice), but comparatively speaking, the more cohesive group outshined the less cohesive one on every level.

 

[iserith]

AL does have issues now and then. After all it's often a random group of people that just happen to show up so you get luck of the draw.

But it can can happen in any game even if the PCs work together if the spread of levels is too high. Any creature, caster or environmental hazard has an area effect that will be a challenge for a mid-to-high level may well kill low level PCs outright. That evil wizard is not going to avoid fireballing the low level guy. He's evil, he'll probably make sure the intern dies first.

That could easily be failure to telegraph the threat on the part of the DM or failure to pick up on or act accordingly in the face of that telegraphing. Don't get in fireball or lightning bolt formation when fighting a spellcaster, for example. Don't run into the strange green mist where all the plants are dead. Hang back, switch to ranged attacks. Drop prone to avoid ranged attacks. Dodge to get advantage on Dex saves. Bank Inspiration for when you need it.

A common thing D&Ders do in my experience is play the same way regardless of party composition or situation. That's especially true in my experience when they lack healers. They just carry on as normal until, oops, everyone's dying. Don't play as if you have a cleric when you don't have one.

So take that, combined with lack of group cohesiveness in what is essentially a pickup group, and now you have all sorts of other issues outside of level disparity contributing to an undesirable outcome.

 

[Oofta]

[MENTION=97077]iserith[/MENTION],
We have different preferences. That's it. Stop man-splaining ... umm ... nerd-splaining? In any case, stop telling me what I think, what my experiences have been and how I make my decisions.

 

[iserith]

[MENTION=97077]iserith[/MENTION],
We have different preferences. That's it. Stop man-splaining ... umm ... nerd-splaining? In any case, stop telling me what I think, what my experiences have been and how I make my decisions.

Not sure how you're arriving at this. I'm not telling you what you think or what your experiences are. I can only go by what you've said. And again, I don't care about your preferences. Do whatever you like. But when you assert a justification for the preference that is debatable, it is reasonable in my view to expect that it will be debated. If you don't want to debate it, that's just fine. You can stop responding at any time.

 

[Swarmkeeper]

I would add that, in my regular groups, all the players are happy when someone else gains a level, even if it's a higher level than they are. One's teammate just got a boost and that helps everybody! Alex being resentful of Sean for being able to play more and gaining levels quicker is totally foreign to us.

Very much this.

Put another way, the characters in our group work together to overcome obstacles. If someone else in the group levels up and now has more tricks and talents to help the group overcome the obstacles, everyone gains.

If the DM is doing their job, they will do their best to shine the spotlight on each PC at different times to help avoid a player feeling "left out" or "jealous" because of some real or perceived imbalance in PC ability.

 

[Oofta]

Very much this.

Put another way, the characters in our group work together to overcome obstacles. If someone else in the group levels up and now has more tricks and talents to help the group overcome the obstacles, everyone gains.

If the DM is doing their job, they will do their best to shine the spotlight on each PC at different times to help avoid a player feeling "left out" or "jealous" because of some real or perceived imbalance in PC ability.

But doesn't it become more than a perceived issue at a certain point? A level 1 or 2 PC is quite a bit more likely to die on a single turn than even a level 4. It's just a simple matter of HP and defenses.

It's even worse if a most of the group is moderately high level and for whatever reason you bring a new PC into the mix. If the group is going off to fight the dragon that level 1 character can either tag along and become a charcoal briquette after the first breath weapon attack or they can stay at the inn while the real adventurers go off and do their thing.

Unless of course low level PCs simply have plot armor.

As far as people's feelings of inadequacy, different people play for different reasons. Just because you don't agree does not mean that other peoples feelings and opinions are irrelevant.

 

[Swarmkeeper]

But doesn't it become more than a perceived issue at a certain point? A level 1 or 2 PC is quite a bit more likely to die on a single turn than even a level 4. It's just a simple matter of HP and defenses.

Yes, which is why I wrote "real or perceived". Doesn't mean real imbalance can't be successful though, either. "Plot armor" might be one way. Playing cautiously or creatively might be some other ways.

As far as people's feelings of inadequacy, different people play for different reasons. Just because you don't agree does not mean that other peoples feelings and opinions are irrelevant.

I assume you mean the general "you" here. I neither wrote nor implied anything that sought to dismiss others feelings or opinions. Sorry if that's how you interpreted it.

 

[iserith]

I assume you mean the general "you" here. I neither wrote nor implied anything that sought to dismiss others feelings or opinions. Sorry if that's how you interpreted it.

Setting aside someone's feelings or opinions in a discussion is also not dismissing them. It means those feelings aren't up for debate because they're feelings. Other assertions, however, might be up for debate.

 

[Oofta]

Yes, which is why I wrote "real or perceived". Doesn't mean real imbalance can't be successful though, either. "Plot armor" might be one way. Playing cautiously or creatively might be some other ways.

The issue of new PCs is one of the reasons I decided to not track XP for individual PCs. While 5E is more balanced in many ways than previous editions, a lower level character can often go from fully healed to dead in a single turn when facing monsters that are appropriate to a higher level group. It's a personal preference, but I'd rather not have that hill giant (much less a monster with double digit CR) ignore the new guy simply because I know I'll kill them with a single hit. I want my opponents to do what makes sense to them from their perspective.

In any case, I was just curious what other people do because I never devised a solution I was happy with. If it makes sense for the hill giant to throw rocks at the sniper in the back, that's what they should do. If I'm at a point in the campaign where the PCs should be fighting storm giants I don't think there's much outside of plot armor that can protect a lower level PC.

I assume you mean the general "you" here. I neither wrote nor implied anything that sought to dismiss others feelings or opinions. Sorry if that's how you interpreted it.

Sorry, I'm probably overly-sensitive. Certain people seem to make the argument that peoples feelings and opinions somehow are supposed to be "set aside" when discussing the topic as if taking into consideration what people will enjoy is not relevant to playing a game.