D&D 5E My (Personal) Early Evaluation of the D&D 5thEd System – Wall of Text

[MichaelSomething]

As the paladin was blocking the doorway the other wights could not charge in as you say. So they chose to focus fire, as you noted it felt the best way to try and drop a key player quickly.

Good use of a chokepoint can nullify a numbers advantage. CR doesn't account for terrain or good tactical ability.

 

[Swarmkeeper]

Paladin had a 22 AC, protection from evil (giving disadvantage to all undead attacks), and heavy armor mastery (-3 damage per attack). He was standing in the doorway, so could not get surrounded on all sides (and we don't use alternate flanking rules). And of course can heal himself. Note that with a wight's +4 to attack, that is only a ~2% chance to hit with each attack, and on average it does 3 points of damage.

As the paladin was blocking the doorway the other wights could not charge in as you say. So they chose to focus fire, as you noted it felt the best way to try and drop a key player quickly. But the paladin was too tough.

Now could I have played it more intelligently of course, the DM can always "win" if he wants. I'm just going back to my original premise, 5e can be deadly, but you have to work at it. I think most DMs would say "hmm....20 wights, and a wraith? Damn, that sounds pretty darn deadly". But it wasn't even a challenge in this example.

Ah, details. When you are talking about a paladin with magically enhanced AC and additional buffs blocking the doorway, the CR 3 baddies are pretty useless. That's a good encounter to narrate (or have the players narrate) an easy victory rather than go through the motions of dice rolling to resolve... the inevitable.

Then again, as long as you are throwing a score of wights against them, what's to stop you from bringing some stealthy reinforcements down the hall on the other side of the door where the squishier PCs are? And that's not necessarily about trying to "win" as DM. That's mixing it up to surprise/delight/scare the players with the unexpected and keep them on their toes - players who are otherwise going to get bored after easily defeating the latest group of "bags-o'-hit-points" if that continues for too long.

Of course the DM has to work at it. But again, IME, it's not really about going "above and beyond", it's part of the basic assignment. It's somewhat obvious, but the players get to focus on running a single PC with the help of the other players at the table to coordinate their teamwork. The DM is alone in coordinating multiple bad guys, often of various types, with no input from other people. It's not necessarily an easy skill. It takes work and experience to adjust on the fly so that an encounter is challenging without being stupidly impossible. One day I hope to get really good at it!

I like to think I run reasonably balanced encounters, occasionally serving up an intentional (or unintentional) meatball and occasionally dropping a PC and once-in-a-while telegraphing a situation that they should handle with some alternative to combat. But I'm constantly running over what I could have done differently and/or better combat-wise in my mind after each session to make it more fun for everyone. I guess that's part of the fun, too.

 

[Stalker0]

Ah, details. When you are talking about a paladin with magically enhanced AC and additional buffs blocking the doorway, the CR 3 baddies are pretty useless.

I think you guys are missing my point. Could I have made this encounter deadlier? Absolutely, no question. Do I often run different encounters than just blop of monsters against the tank....of course, absolutely.

But I would argue, take the equivalent 6th level 3e edition paladin, and have him face 20 3rd edition monsters that get 2 bow attacks, and are tough enough to eat one full fireball (or 2 saved against fireballs)...and that paladin is going to die. My point is that a blob that in 3rd edition would have just destroyed that paladin....requires "tactics" in 5e.

Again nothing is wrong with that, but it highlights my point that 5e edition characters are very durable, and you can't just throw a whole bunch of attacks at them and expect to make a deadly encounter. You have to DM it smarter than that....hence my premise that 5e is not the deadly edition that was noted in the OP.

 

[Shiroiken]

When did this happen? I started AL back in July 2016 and never been charged. Ok I do generally buy my own modules.

It was the cost of the adventures. I used to run Encounters back during the playtest, where they provided the adventures for the DMs to run (usually to highlight some aspect of the playtest). The DMs got to keep the adventure, which was basically the reward for 10+ weeks of work.

When Murder in Baulder's Gate came out, they wanted the DMs to purchase the adventure instead. The store owner went ahead and bought it for the three DMs, because Encounters was a popular event (we usually had 7-9 person tables). While it was a fantastic product, I felt that transitioning to published adventures (of playtest material) wasn't good for the DMs, since we'd have to shell out money and do 10+ weeks worth of work. If this had happened after 5E came out, I probably would have felt differently, but paying for playtest material just feels so wrong to me.

I suppose it got better, since DMs do earn rewards for DMing now, but I have no desire to DM or play with random people, which universally seems to include at least one jackass. I have a regular group of great people and will stick with them.

 

[Swarmkeeper]

But I would argue, take the equivalent 6th level 3e edition paladin, and have him face 20 3rd edition monsters that get 2 bow attacks, and are tough enough to eat one full fireball (or 2 saved against fireballs)...and that paladin is going to die. My point is that a blob that in 3rd edition would have just destroyed that paladin....requires "tactics" in 5e.

Not sure your example above helps your point:
- 5e fireball does 8d6 damage (average damage 28)
- 5e wights have 45 HP on average and get two bow attacks
- Therefore, 5e wight = 3e wight by your rough metrics

Nevertheless... no need to belabor the point. I'm happy to just take your word for it that 3e combat is deadlier (in opposition to the OP... although the OP did not explicitly say 5e is combat "deadlier than 3e" but did say deadlier than PF, which I think is part of our "missing [your] point"). Perhaps, the above example is lacking details that someone (like me) who has never played 3e could not infer. Honestly, it doesn't matter to me.

and you can't just throw a whole bunch of attacks at them and expect to make a deadly encounter. You have to DM it smarter than that...

This part I agree with - and said as much in my previous post.

DMing "smarter", though, doesn't mean going "above and beyond" from my perspective. It's just plain doing the job I signed up for as DM. YMMV

 

[5ekyu]

Good use of a chokepoint can nullify a numbers advantage. CR doesn't account for terrain or good tactical ability.

Actually this is a key point - terrain is called out in the cr section as favorable circumstances. But a choke point against weaker forces works well..

However, what also works well...

Tandem grapples. Intelligent foes like wights with numbers at a choke point against a hig AC target should help-grapple to get one advantaged grapple off and if successful drag the pally inside. It's not an attack roll sp PvE does not help.

A key to "tactics" in this game (and other areas) is not powering thru the enemy strong suit but slipping around it.

But from a planning perspective, hordes of one thing (or two) are never gonna be as good as a mixed bag. Consider what a grease spell or any small area AoE eould fo yo that choke point pally? Consider how Fog Cloud plus AoE spells would perhaps drive the pcs to step inside.

 

[ad_hoc]

I think if the party can just stand in doorways to kill monsters as they go then the adventure design needs to be looked at.

Why are monsters standing around letting this happen? Why don't they get into their own doorways? Isn't the party the ones who are looking for something? The monsters are in no rush.

Why aren't they being attacked from behind or after they enter the room? etc.

I accept that some people have found 5e to not be deadly.

That isn't my experience. We've had multiple TPKs. Now we don't get them as often but the table knows that sometimes they need to accept defeat to go rest rather than risk it.

Players approach challenges tactically. Maybe it is that we use WotC adventures. I find that the trap the enemy thing doesn't come up very often. And when it does the party has usually earned it.

 

[ElterAgo]

This isn't a thing. Or I should say, this isn't a thing about AL. There is no charge for AL from WOTC. There is no requirement in any way that AL games charge to play, any more than there ever was a charge to play in Pathfider Society. If you are encountering a fee, it's purely that game store doing it, or some DM doing it. It has literally nothing to do with AL. There is no "AL Fee". And I suspect if WOTC found out that some game store was saying or implying a fee they were charging was from AL or from WOTC, they'd be unhappy about that.

As I said above:
...Not just one store. I've been to AL in 4 different stores in 3 different states. All charged $5 and said they were 'supposed' to because of AL rules. None of them charge for a PFS or SW game at the same store. The only place that didn't charge was AL at a bar. But even they said they were told they were supposed to charge, but didn't because we all came in and bought plenty of drinks and food...

I guess I can't say where this is coming from, but they all seemed to think it was from AL.

Note: I just got back from one of the game stores in my area and spoke with the guy behind the desk. He is not the one that organizes AL at that store, however he has spoken with the the AL organizer about it (I think his name was Dave). They both thought it was stupid, but were told they were supposed to charge. The guy that was there this evening didn't know who told Dave that (or if it was written some place), he was under the impression it came from AL. He will ask Dave next time he sees him.

 

[ElterAgo]

I don't want you guys to get the wrong impression from me. I'm not saying D&D 5thEd is horrible or anything like that. I actually think it is a pretty good game in a lot of ways. I will have fun playing if I get invited to a game. I just think I like PF a little bit better. That opinion could change over time.

Additionally, I've been talking to a couple of other guys over the last few days. Seems like there is at least 'some' more variation in characters and builds if you have more of the additional books. Duh... Not sure yet if it is enough for me.
It also sounds like there is a bit more variation when people get up in levels a bit. The first feat or two are pretty common and the 'good' low level spells are pretty similar. However, I'm told it starts opening up a bit after that.

Incidentally, I have just started reading up on the Pathfinder 2.0 playtest material. It sounds like they are trying for something part way between PF1.0 and D&D5thEd. I don't know yet if they are managing the best of both worlds or stumbled into the worst of both worlds.

 

[Markh3rd]

My impression of PF2 playtest so far has a feeling of 4th ed. It doesn't feel like crunchy 3.5 anymore and isn't smooth enough to be like 5th edition.