D&D 5E My (Personal) Early Evaluation of the D&D 5thEd System – Wall of Text

[Jester David]

B.  The character builds are too simple. Every sorcerer or wizard I‘ve seen so far is a blaster caster. (Maybe slightly different blast spells, but still a blaster.) Every fighter has a sword (war hammer) and shield, or two-handed sword and is planning on nearly identical feat/ability choices. Every ranger has had either a longbow or 2 shorts swords and is planning on nearly identical feat/ability choices. Boring… (In PF, I can make an effective fighter that specializes in disarming, tripping, and then tying up his opponents to take them alive. 5thEd has no rules for doing anything like this. In PF, I can make an effective caster that controls the battle field with clouds of damaging fog, pits in the ground, walls of spikes, etc… In 5thEd, I don’t see anyone even considering trying to do anything like that.)

The "optimal" builds are pretty limited, but that tends to be the least interesting builds. And really, after twenty-five years of playing tabletop RPGs, the least interesting and memorable part of a character is their "build". What makes them fun is everything else.

C.  Character build ‘sub-game’ is absent in D&D 5thEd. I am lucky to have time to game once a week. Usually more like once every two weeks. In PF, I can spend a lot of the in between time building characters, thinking about new uses for spells, possible combinations of archtype, feat, race, etc… Then I can also spend time discussing those possibilities with others in person or online. I can kill lots of little bites of free time working on things for PF even when I can’t be gaming. In D&D 5th Ed, the builds are so simple and similar that none of that really applies to any great extent. Considering a sword and board warrior type? Bam. Here it is. Done. I can understand why some people like that simplicity, but for me it eliminates a large part of what attracts me to RPG’s in general.

The catch is that people who don't like the lonely fun of character building are largely forced to waste free time making a character, or delay the start of the game as they level their character.
The thing is, there's a billion things you can do during your free time, and D&D can't compete with mobile games, Netflix, books, and the like.

The thing is... 90% of the characters you spend your time building between games don't see play. So, really, you could still spend your free time building Pathfinder characters and then playing 5e and the characters will see as much use.

D.  See number 5. Above “…Much is left up to the DM’s discretion in how to rule or resolve a given situation. If you have a really good DM that is creative, consistent, and good at ‘theatre of the mind’ descriptions – this is wondrous…” The converse of this is that if you do not have a DM that is creative, consistent, and good at ‘theatre of the mind’ descriptions – it can easily end up kinda lame. Some DM’s almost shut down if there is no rule, “you can’t do that.” Some DM’s are giving wildly different DC’s for nearly identical things even within the same session, just because they can’t remember last time or get bored with characters repeating actions. If the DM can’t imagine how something might be possibly accomplished and there isn’t a rule, they might just set the DC impossibly high.

The game decided that it can't make stacks and stacks of rules to force bad DMs to be good DMs. Because bad DMs will just ignore the rules.

Even in Pathfinder with books upon books of hard coded rules, bad GMs be bad. And the DCs will still vary because bad GMs won't calculate them properly or know all the modifiers.

c.  I dislike the $5 fee to play the game. Not only do I have to by a $60+ book, I have to pay $5 at every game session. PFS has no charge to play. Most of us buy snacks/drinks at the game shop. Sometimes we buy some figurines, maps, dice, etc… With AL’s fee, I find myself less likely to buy anything else. On average, they are getting less money from me. But maybe they are getting more on average from others. I can understand this is setup to help make the game shops more supportive of AL, but I find it annoying.

That's the table, not the game. There's no hard rules about that.

I have had PFS tables charge as well. Because the stores have to offset the cost of the tables being used by people who aren't buying packs of cards.

 

[Guest 6801328]

So, really, you could still spend your free time building Pathfinder characters and then playing 5e and the characters will see as much use.

QFT!

(I also laughed out loud.)

 

[Oofta]

I think you guys are missing my point. Could I have made this encounter deadlier? Absolutely, no question. Do I often run different encounters than just blop of monsters against the tank....of course, absolutely.

But I would argue, take the equivalent 6th level 3e edition paladin, and have him face 20 3rd edition monsters that get 2 bow attacks, and are tough enough to eat one full fireball (or 2 saved against fireballs)...and that paladin is going to die. My point is that a blob that in 3rd edition would have just destroyed that paladin....requires "tactics" in 5e.

Again nothing is wrong with that, but it highlights my point that 5e edition characters are very durable, and you can't just throw a whole bunch of attacks at them and expect to make a deadly encounter. You have to DM it smarter than that....hence my premise that 5e is not the deadly edition that was noted in the OP.

Having DMed every edition, I would say it's not really all that much different. Every group is different, I don't have to use tactics in this edition any more or less than in previous editions. I actually find it easier to throw together a balanced encounter than previous editions because you have a starting guideline you didn't have in 2E and previous, the save or suck spells from 3.x and related issues with 4E are lessened. YMMV of course and some encounters I thought would be tough are cakewalks and things I thought would be relatively simple are practically TPKs.

I just don't get the complaint no matter how often it comes up. Not challenging your party? Don't allow as many long rests, hand out a reasonable amount of treasure so the PCs aren't glowing like Christmas trees and throw more monsters. How is that hard?

 

[Oofta]

As I said above:
...Not just one store. I've been to AL in 4 different stores in 3 different states. All charged $5 and said they were 'supposed' to because of AL rules. None of them charge for a PFS or SW game at the same store. The only place that didn't charge was AL at a bar. But even they said they were told they were supposed to charge, but didn't because we all came in and bought plenty of drinks and food...

I guess I can't say where this is coming from, but they all seemed to think it was from AL.

Note: I just got back from one of the game stores in my area and spoke with the guy behind the desk. He is not the one that organizes AL at that store, however he has spoken with the the AL organizer about it (I think his name was Dave). They both thought it was stupid, but were told they were supposed to charge. The guy that was there this evening didn't know who told Dave that (or if it was written some place), he was under the impression it came from AL. He will ask Dave next time he sees him.

I don't know where they're getting this from, nobody around here charges unless it's been for a charity convention.

 

[ad_hoc]

I don't want you guys to get the wrong impression from me. I'm not saying D&D 5thEd is horrible or anything like that. I actually think it is a pretty good game in a lot of ways. I will have fun playing if I get invited to a game. I just think I like PF a little bit better. That opinion could change over time.

Additionally, I've been talking to a couple of other guys over the last few days. Seems like there is at least 'some' more variation in characters and builds if you have more of the additional books. Duh... Not sure yet if it is enough for me.
It also sounds like there is a bit more variation when people get up in levels a bit. The first feat or two are pretty common and the 'good' low level spells are pretty similar. However, I'm told it starts opening up a bit after that.

Incidentally, I have just started reading up on the Pathfinder 2.0 playtest material. It sounds like they are trying for something part way between PF1.0 and D&D5thEd. I don't know yet if they are managing the best of both worlds or stumbled into the worst of both worlds.

Sounds like you want to play Pathfinder.

More power to you.

 

[Oofta]

...
Pros
...

I pretty much agree with these.

Cons:


A.  In many ways the rules are too simple. Since there is no rule for even fairly simple activities, I as the player have no real idea how high of a DC the DM will set for many

common things. For examples: Throwing a grappling hook up on to the roof and climbing the attached rope. As a real person, with only little bit of experimentation, I would have a pretty good idea of how difficult that would be for me to attempt. I have had DM’s set the DC as low as a single DC 10 check to high as 3 DC 18 checks in very nearly identical circumstances. One didn’t even require any check at all “Oh yeah you are experienced guys, you can do that no problem.”

I'd much prefer that to flipping pages in a book trying to find this specific rule. In addition, as others have said there are guidelines. However, in some cases I know I've set a DC higher than expected and needed to clarify why it was more difficult than normal. The benefits of flexibility and reliance on DM judgement outweigh the cost

B.  The character builds are too simple. Every sorcerer or wizard I‘ve seen so far is a blaster caster. (Maybe slightly different blast spells, but still a blaster.) Every fighter has a sword (war hammer) and shield, or two-handed sword and is planning on nearly identical feat/ability choices. Every ranger has had either a longbow or 2 shorts swords and is planning on nearly identical feat/ability choices. Boring… (In PF, I can make an effective fighter that specializes in disarming, tripping, and then tying up his opponents to take them alive. 5thEd has no rules for doing anything like this. In PF, I can make an effective caster that controls the battle field with clouds of damaging fog, pits in the ground, walls of spikes, etc… In 5thEd, I don’t see anyone even considering trying to do anything like that.)

C.  Character build ‘sub-game’ is absent in D&D 5thEd. I am lucky to have time to game once a week. Usually more like once every two weeks. In PF, I can spend a lot of the in between time building characters, thinking about new uses for spells, possible combinations of archtype, feat, race, etc… Then I can also spend time discussing those possibilities with others in person or online. I can kill lots of little bites of free time working on things for PF even when I can’t be gaming. In D&D 5th Ed, the builds are so simple and similar that none of that really applies to any great extent. Considering a sword and board warrior type? Bam. Here it is. Done. I can understand why some people like that simplicity, but for me it eliminates a large part of what attracts me to RPG’s in general.

The decisions are fairly front-loaded, but for me they always have been because of prerequisites. As far as cookie cutter PCs, I guess that's in the eye of the beholder and not something I see all that often. With backgrounds and sub-classes I think this edition is more flexible and allows for more variety even if much is decided ahead of time. It may be more prevalent in AL games because of the nature of the campaign versus home campaigns.

D.  See number 5. Above “…Much is left up to the DM’s discretion in how to rule or resolve a given situation. If you have a really good DM that is creative, consistent, and good at ‘theatre of the mind’ descriptions – this is wondrous…” The converse of this is that if you do not have a DM that is creative, consistent, and good at ‘theatre of the mind’ descriptions – it can easily end up kinda lame. Some DM’s almost shut down if there is no rule, “you can’t do that.” Some DM’s are giving wildly different DC’s for nearly identical things even within the same session, just because they can’t remember last time or get bored with characters repeating actions. If the DM can’t imagine how something might be possibly accomplished and there isn’t a rule, they might just set the DC impossibly high.

E.  I dislike that my 3rd level martial focused fighter is no better at swinging his sword than the 1st level sneak focused rogue. In fact, he is arguably worse since the rogue is using 2 swords (at no penalty) and so is twice as likely to hit and accomplish something.

So... take two weapon fighting and add your primary ability score to your off-hand attack. Or wait a level or two and get extra attacks, feats and other cool toys. Different classes will have different relative capabilities at different levels. Another thing that I think is a feature, not a flaw.

F.  I dislike the fact that since there are no difficulties set for almost anything (all DM discretion), I as the player have no idea if I can accomplish the individual items in the plan we are developing. Kicking in the exterior door into the manor house and the interior pantry door were both a DC 17 (It unexpectedly took us 3 tries for the big strong barbarian to bash his way into the simple pantry). Climbing a knotted rope was a DC 15 (we expected a knotted rope to be pretty easy). Climbing a simple tree was a DC 12 even though almost any 6 year can do it without falling to his death 50% of the time.

G.  Skills - I dislike the fact that it is almost impossibly difficult to ever get better at anything but my initial few skills. Yes, I can take one of my very feat choices to make it trained skill. But that is a fairly serious impact to his primary utility as a fighter, sorcerer, or whatever. In PF, my barbarian can keep throwing a few points into studying about undead creatures (even though it is not something barbarians are normally good at) and eventually get pretty decent at knowing the weaknesses of most of his undead enemies. Even your trained skills are not going to get much better. Your 17th level wizard is probably only slightly better at knowing anything about dragons than he was at 1st level.

Sounds like a DM issue, not a 5E issue. But no matter how much any edition I've played tried to codify all this stuff, it never seemed to work very well.

H.  Adventurer’s League. Although I like the somewhat greater availability of A.L. over Pathfinder Society, I am not happy with the way it is run, administered, and setup.

a.  Some areas there is always a “known” AL game(s) on such day of the week at such time. But no one is taking the time to put it on Warhorn (or whatever). So I don’t know what they are running, what tier it will be, or if there will be openings at the table. Twice in the short time I’ve been trying AL, I have taken the time to drive to the shop only to turn around and drive home again. This appears to be a fairly common occurrence in many areas.

b.  I dislike that there is nothing like PFS pregens available to use if the only open table is tier 3 and I don’t have a character of that level.

c.  I dislike the $5 fee to play the game. Not only do I have to by a $60+ book, I have to pay $5 at every game session. PFS has no charge to play. Most of us buy snacks/drinks at the game shop. Sometimes we buy some figurines, maps, dice, etc… With AL’s fee, I find myself less likely to buy anything else. On average, they are getting less money from me. But maybe they are getting more on average from others. I can understand this is setup to help make the game shops more supportive of AL, but I find it annoying.

These seem to be local issues. Our games are organized on meetup and we don't pay anything.

d.  I am really growing to really hate how treasure/reward is handled in AL. It is just stupid and is really impinging on my suspension of disbelief. Our groups have fought and defeated several low level enemies in plate armor, but no. There is no way you can have it before you get to tier 3. You’ve found dozens of potions of healing, but you have to spend 2/3 of the meager 75 gps you get just to buy 1 emergency healing potion that you are then afraid to use because it is such a huge portion of your wealth. Hooray! You came in first place in the city races, you won 5000 gps – but you get nothing. Certainly can’t afford ‘standard’ adventuring gear like holy water, alchemist fire, antitoxin, or even a horse. Makes no difference if you save the little girl or let her die. Makes no difference if you dispelled the danger threatening the city or simply barely survived while running away. Still the same negligible reward. Sheesh?!? (I will clearly admit that PFS has some of the same issues, but they are much worse in AL.)

Yeah, in previous living campaigns all the mods were written for the campaign or published adventures had guidelines. But there was silliness before the new rules ... I had a 5th level character with a legendary item, another 5th level PC at the table had tens of thousands of gold with nothing to spend it on. I'm not saying this version of the AL rules work particularly well ... I think treasure points could work but I'm not fond of how they've been implemented.

 

[Mistwell]

As I said above:
...Not just one store. I've been to AL in 4 different stores in 3 different states. All charged $5 and said they were 'supposed' to because of AL rules.

The rules are public. Anyone can see them and read them. There is no such charge.

Mike Mearls was even asked on Twitter about why some stores charge. His answer was it was up to each store or DM, and some do it to pay for their costs (stores don't receive all the material for free). WOTC has nothing to do with the fee though.

 

[jasper]

I checked on Facebook Adventure League Dm group. 75+ responses said there is no charge. ANd there was a lot of cussing in the thread too.

 

[cmad1977]

Having DMed every edition, I would say it's not really all that much different. Every group is different, I don't have to use tactics in this edition any more or less than in previous editions. I actually find it easier to throw together a balanced encounter than previous editions because you have a starting guideline you didn't have in 2E and previous, the save or suck spells from 3.x and related issues with 4E are lessened. YMMV of course and some encounters I thought would be tough are cakewalks and things I thought would be relatively simple are practically TPKs.

I just don't get the complaint no matter how often it comes up. Not challenging your party? Don't allow as many long rests, hand out a reasonable amount of treasure so the PCs aren't glowing like Christmas trees and throw more monsters. How is that hard?

There are DMs that want to run games and also take no responsibility for them.

 

[Elderbrain]

"Wall of Text" oughta be a spell...