Banishing Eldritch Blast

[cmad1977]

The only real questions here is
Is your desire to change the spell also desired by the warlock player?

 

[MechaTarrasque]

Maybe it is just me, but that doesn't seem very interesting as a fix.

How about this: make eldritch blast a 1st level spell, but make it like sunbeam (concentration for a minute, and number of blasts increases as you upcast the spell [limit 4 at 5th level]). That way if the party encounters an army of orcs, the warlock can "do his/her part."

Then make hex a cantrip: no concentration, no disadvantage on ability checks, and it deals extra damage based on the first damage the target takes (regardless of who does it), and then then it is done (time to spam it again). Agonizing invocation becomes agonizing curse, and there could be a series of invocations that enhance hex: blinding curse (target gets the blinded or deaf condition until it takes damage), hex and run (you automatically teleport after hexing a target), long term hex (lets you upcast it and functions like the original hex spell), weakening hex (reduces the strength score instead of does damage [the extra damage from agonizing hex is still damage, not strength score reduction]), etc.

Then instead of the arcane archer, the warlock is the regular debuffer.
Edit: hex would take an action.

 

[Guest 6801328]

So another option would be to eliminate the cantrip and define a new Warlock ability "Eldritch Blast":

"When you cast a ranged cantrip that does damage to a single target, each die of damage is rolled as a separate attack, which can be directed at multiple targets."

Likewise Agonizing Blast can be changed to apply to any ranged, damaging cantrip.

 

[clearstream]

Considering that eldritch blast is the best cantrip in the game without any invocation support (as you said, high range, force damage, and the ability to multi-attack), I don't see how giving the other cantrips the same benefits via invocation could possibly be considered OP.

If you really want to help out other cantrips without removing Eldritch Blast, maybe make it so that Agonizing Blast gives +Cha to damage per die of cantrip damage. EB is still slightly better, but the other cantrips will give a better chance of big hits (at the cost of whiffing more often).

I think if Agonizing Blast applied to each die of damage, the damage cantrips that have useful side effects would be as good as Eldritch Blast. Fire Bolt would remain over-shadowed due to the damage type (about 80 core foes resist or are immune to fire, versus 1 that is immune to force, not to mention that spells like Absorb Elements have no effect on force).

EB and invocations have been central to the Warlock, right from its 3.5ed Complete Arcane version where it was a ray (ranged touch) that did d6s. Hence it is right that commentators are concerned about removing it. Having played with Warlocks at the table for about two years now in 5e, EB spam is standing out as offering less fun than could be available with some adjustment. It seems to hedge the Warlocks in to using it (in part due to few spell slots, as [MENTION=20564]Blue[/MENTION] noted), and it also takes a pretty tightly optimised melee class to compete with it, forcing non-Warlock characters into a narrower design-space. (Warlocks have moved up in favoured classes, as measured by WotC, and I think that is in some part due to their sitting in a sweet spot in the 5e design space). Remembering at all times that here I'm talking only about the quality of the game mechanics.

The thing is, it feels like Eldritch Blast at the table is a bit better than it needs to be to remain viable. The combination of a target per damage die, force damage type, range, and per bolt bonuses, turns out to be really strong. Over time, the average damage from say Fire Bolt compared with Eldritch Blast sans Agonizing Blast is the same, albeit Fire Bolt is spikier (its damage comes in bigger lumps) and is more often resisted. However, the efficiency of being able to switch targets, and of course Agonizing Blast, make Eldritch Blast much killier.

I'm concerned that if all damaging cantrips are moved toward its level, then that could overshadow something else that my players in time will find they care about! What I'd love to see is reasonably often Fire Bolt being the better choice (over EB), without pressing too hard up against weapon-based ranged and melee. For that, the golden path could be ban or tone down EB, and buff the rest.

Say Eldritch Blast isn't touched, but the Invocations apply to only one damage die... doing so for all damage dealing cantrips. It's interesting that Lance of Lethargy, written after Core was released and in play for awhile, already applies only once. Having seen them extensively in play at the table, I believe Agonizing and Repelling would be fine nerfed to once, and Spear could be simply triple the base range.

 

[clearstream]

The only real questions here is
Is your desire to change the spell also desired by the warlock player?

My motive for reviewing the spell at all comes from vocal player concerns. We have two Warlock players. One of them has played their character from level 1 right through to level 11. The other joined at level 4 and played through to level 12 from there. I think their experiences are worth listening to.

 

[clearstream]

Then the problem is *not* the thing you are kicking out of the game but the feature that is modifying it.

The rapier is not needing to be banned because of the sneak attack damage it gets, right?

So, thats my point.

Instead of banning Eldritch blast change the feature so that its working with Eldritch blast in a way you find acceptable.

Change the feature to "once per turn" not "once per die" if the "per attack" one bolt vs three bolts issue is a problem for your warlock happiness quotient.

Expanding the Agonizing et al to cover other types of cantrips is to me not a problem - after all - the blade pact benefits apply to more than one weapon type right?

Maybe have a second invocation that allows you to apply the various EB boosts to other cantrips - like how you can take Improved pact weapon and gain ranged weapons to conjure up - etc


but banning eldritch blast from everybody else because the warlock makes it not work how you like seems like blaming the rapier for the sneak damage preventing all those greataxe rogue concepts from being used.

Agreed. Where I find myself moving toward is making an adjustment not to the Blast, but to the Invocations. House ruling they apply to only one damage die, but that they also apply to all damage dealing cantrips.

 

[Guest 6801328]

5ekyu has me blocked but, yes, the Rapier should be tossed out of the game for the same reason.

 

[Sorcerers Apprentice]

Why not simply keep Eldritch Blast as it is, but also allow invocations to apply to all cantrips? EB will still be the main warlock attack, but other cantrips will also be more attractive to use in the right situation, meaning the warlock gets to make more meaningful choices.

 

[TwoSix]

The thing is, it feels like Eldritch Blast at the table is a bit better than it needs to be to remain viable. The combination of a target per damage die, force damage type, range, and per bolt bonuses, turns out to be really strong. Over time, the average damage from say Fire Bolt compared with Eldritch Blast sans Agonizing Blast is the same, albeit Fire Bolt is spikier (its damage comes in bigger lumps) and is more often resisted. However, the efficiency of being able to switch targets, and of course Agonizing Blast, make Eldritch Blast much killier.

Yea, I think there's a key question there that has to be answered before you can really houserule EB in any direction: Is the multi-attack component of Eldritch Blast a feature or a bug?

If the strength of EB's multi-attack is what makes the Warlock worth playing, then expanding that capability to other cantrips and invocations only makes sense. If EB's multi-attack is a proud nail in the design that's making the Warlock a little too strong, on the other hand, hammer it down, and other cantrip and invocation options will naturally come to the fore.

I think you're correct in pointing out that the design of some of the Xanathar's invocations points towards the designer's belief that EB design isn't ideal, and I too would lean towards houseruling in that direction. To make that change slightly more palatable, I'd probably make some of the other invocations a little stronger. (One of my favored changes is removing the spell slot cost from the once per long rest spell casting invocations.)

 

[Yunru]

Does a Fighter not deserve the attacks from his extra attack?
Is a Warlock not entitled to only need one attack cantrip?
[insert more Bioshock references]