D&D 4E Mike Mearls on how 4E could have looked

[Garthanos]

Aside from the main argument...

Um, not quite.

We learn that Thor is not the God of Hammers in Thor: Ragnarok. It is *AFTER* that, in the next Avengers movie, that he learns that for some things he does still need a weapon, and gets one made.

And definitely helps make it.

 

[Garthanos]

Mearles sort of answered the question diverging into something he might have in hindsight brought forward into 5e - I like that conversation direction.

For me

A more extensive and "generous" page 42 like methodology comes to mind.

comes to mind

As does fully fixed and better presented skill challenges.(sounds like he is talking and thinking about this now)

Bloodied as a status with many things triggering off of it

Warlord (Battlemaster can be the root class for it damn Battle Master has the same basic etymology of War Lord) and in 2e the Weapon Mastering Tactical and Strategic Warrior Lord was called fighter at least in the fiction albeit lacking the mechanics to back most of that up.

 

[Garthanos]

Smite at level 2 runs off spell slots. If he only has a single encounter then he can burn slots to boost damage without having to worry about later encounters.

Thanks that explains it I missed you answering.

 

[Manbearcat]

But why not, though?

Why isn't it "permissible" for a player to declare as an action "I reach right into the forge to continue the crafting of this artifact" (or something to similar intent)? Sure, it might be a stupid thing to do; and the character is extremely likely (if not outright guaranteed) to burn their own hands off...but that's no reason whatsoever to disallow someone from doing it.

Now I'm wondering if you're using the word 'permissible' in a strange way. Permissible doesn't mean "having a chance of success", it means "allowed, as opposed to banned".

Come on Lanefan. Having to clarify a pedantic examination of word usage isn’t anteresting conversation and certainly doesn’t help clarity.

Obviously, in terms of these conversations it’s “not permissible in context of RPGs” in that “you have no hope of accomplishing your sought end because the GM or the system says so.” It doesn’t become permissible because you spend table time on allowing the attempt that has 0 chance of success.”

It’s frustrating that you would have me write all of that out.

Perhaps this is why artificing and item creation isn't generally considered to be something that warrior types do...

Or...

perhaps Fighter types have been smithing items forever...

And dealing with heat that instantly slags certain types of metal in genre fiction yet somehow the conduction of their armor doesn’t roast them because they passed their saving throw?...(except weirdly in specific exceptions where the physics are “turned on” like the Heat Metal spell)

...or dozens of other interactions with fire in D&Dland...

Let’s not pretend that (a) gamers’ application of, or the various rulesets/settings themselves, are remotely consistent with Earth physics or (b) that the genre tropes of D&D are not a collage of enumerable sources. Trope expansion and genre versatility is one of D&D’s primary calling cards (and championed virtues...until it’s a trope or genre a particular person doesn’t like!).

 

[Parmandur]

I'm puzzled as to which of the following is true:

(1) in 5e there can be stuff that is feasible for high level martial PCs, but gated against low level ones, by maths and/or the logic of the fiction (the latter producing "subjective" DCs)?

(2) in 5re bounded accuracy means that there is nothing gated against low level PCs?

Bounded Accuracy doesn't mean that there is zero gating. Nobody with a 0 ability mod and no proficiency can hit hit any number over 20. However, the Level 1 Fighter with 16 Dexterity and Proficiency in Stealth can hit the Very Hard 25 DC on a good roll. The same Fighter at Level 20 who invests in Dex has a decent shot at hitting a DC 30 "nearly impossible" check. There is definitely gating, but what Abilities got rolled, Background chosen and Class play about equal role with Level, and a low level character can still have some effect on something out of their league. It's a smaller range, very elegant in practice.

All DCs are determined by DM fiat, so if the DM and players are going for a particular style, it is possible to roll for it.

As for anything less than maximum challenge working fine - I would expect that one combat per day, resolved on the standard rest schedule, is going to make a (say) smiting paladin more effective than (say) a champion in the same circumstance.

Likewise, if there is only one wall per day to be climbed over, then the ability of the fighter or thief to "jump all day long" isn't really going to come into play, is it? Won't the caster with fly, jump, spider climb etc be more effective under those conditions?

Well, sure it will favor the long rest Classes. But any group that lays like that (Critical Role might have a >1 combat encounter a day average, for instance, and they have fun) doesn't care. If they care, the DM's jobs to season to taste, and the DMG has guidelines to help.

The two different issues I've raised in this post - balance of build effectivenes around a 6-to-8 encounters per adventuring day; and the lack of a systematic process for implementing "subjective" DCs - are two of the ways in which 5e differs from 4e that are especially salient for me.

Maybe.

 

[Imaro]

This...

... and a low level character can still have some effect on something out of their league. It's a smaller range, very elegant in practice.

and this...

All DCs are determined by DM fit, so if the DM and players are going for a particular style, it is possible to roll for it.

Pretty much sum up the stance of most if not all proponents of 5e in the thread.

Bounded Accuracy allows one to "influence the fiction" over a greater range of mechanical difficulty. Whether that's a low level fighter who can on a very lucky roll hit some pretty high (though maybe not the highest DC's possible) or a high level fighter who can on a very bad roll still have rock crumble and break under his grasp on a regular cliff face and fall. Furthermore this range is expanded or decreased by the specific build choices made by the player. I think this view has been pretty consistent with most if not all of the 5e fans in this thread...and I'm not sure why [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] you are trying to continually push it as having been stated as an all or nothing type thing... i.e. All low level characters can influence all high level tasks and all high level characters can be affected by all low level tasks.

 

[Imaro]

I've just been reading through my copy of Dungeon of the Mad Mage, the new high level Megadungeon. No spoilers, but the Tier IV Level 23 where the Mad Mage lives has Skill DCs of 15 or 20, still. No treadmill.

5E is balanced around a maximum challenge: anything less will work fine.

Is there an example of an official D&D adventure where the escalating DC treadmill is taking place... I don't use pre-made adventures often so I'm genuinely curious which ones do this...

 

[Parmandur]

Is there an example of an official D&D adventure where the escalating DC treadmill is taking place... I don't use pre-made adventures often so I'm genuinely curious which ones do this...

No, not really. I will admit DMs are pretty likely to do that, to keep things interesting, but the scale is very manageable and flexible.

Thinking about this, I also just noticed that it is literally impossible for any PC to hit a DC 30, until Level 5...that is, until Tier II. So a certain gating is definitely built into the system.

 

[Imaro]

No, not really. I will admit DMs are pretty likely to do that, to keep things interesting, but the scale is very manageable and flexible.

Thinking about this, I also just noticed that it is literally impossible for any PC to hit a DC 30, until Level 5...that is, until Tier II. So a certain gating is definitely built into the system.

Lol... I made this point earlier to @pemerton. That there are in fact things that can be accomplished by higher level PC's that can't be by lower level PC's (from a mechanical standpoint). The difference I think in the approaches, and maybe where @pemerton ' s contention is, is that 4e tells you these things are part of the epic tier and they involve this specific fiction... while 5e says these are beyond the ken of certain men and you the DM decide what that is in your particular campaign. I think pemerton wants the game to define these things for him while I (and I think others) rea happy to decide what these things are for ourselves in any particular camapign.

The fact that official adventures seem to rarely if ever use these DC's (thus also not attaching a specific fiction to them) would seem to reinforce this notion of the DM defining what falls into those extreme DC's.

EDIT: I want a more mythical campaign... Fighters sticking their hands into forges of creation to hold an artifact while it is created become doable at high levels. More sword and sorcery... perhaps gigantic leaps and feats of extreme strength beyond those of most men become feasible at the higher end of the DC's.

 

[Parmandur]

Lol... I made this point earlier to @pemerton. That there are in fact things that can be accomplished by higher level PC's that can't be by lower level PC's (from a mechanical standpoint). The difference I think in the approaches, and maybe where @pemerton ' s contention is, is that 4e tells you these things are part of the epic tier and they involve this specific fiction... while 5e says these are beyond the ken of certain men and you the DM decide what that is in your particular campaign. I think pemerton wants the game to define these things for him while I (and I think others) rea happy to decide what these things are for ourselves in any particular camapign.

The fact that official adventures seem to rarely if ever use these DC's (thus also not attaching a specific fiction to them) would seem to reinforce this notion of the DM defining what falls into those extreme DC's.

EDIT: I want a more mythical campaign... Fighters sticking their hands into forges of creation to hold an artifact while it is created become doable at high levels. More sword and sorcery... perhaps gigantic leaps and feats of extreme strength beyond those of most men become feasible at the higher end of the DC's.

True, the Dungeon Master's Guide does offer pretty specific suggestions for adapting a campaign to different genre modes, like Wuxia or mythological deeds.