D&D 4E Mike Mearls on how 4E could have looked

[Garthanos]

But their resources don't deplete. They can keep swinging the sword (magic or not) and making skill checks all the live long day. .

Right because hit points don't create a "day" limit for everyone... and often moreso for the
classes who melee more.

 

[Garthanos]

Spell caster were the ones back in the day who got to call for a stop
usually

From a party perspective if the wizard lucked out and had a sleep spell
"who would push on very long without their big guns armed with ammo."

 

[Garthanos]

It was mentioned earlier that Mearles had twitched about using skill challenges to manage simplified battle situations does anyone have a link they could share. My google fu has failed me.

 

[Parmandur]

Right because hit points don't create a "day" limit for everyone... and often moreso for the
classes who melee more.

Hit dice, short rests, healing potions (assumed in the PHB) Cleric spell slots...did you notice the part where at Level 18 the Champion becomes Wolverine and will never be below half HP in a day, before considering Hit Dice...?

 

[cbwjm]

It was mentioned earlier that Mearles had twitched about using skill challenges to manage simplified battle situations does anyone have a link they could share. My google fu has failed me.

Look up the Mike Mearls happy fun hour on YouTube. It is probably one of the last three since I still have 3 to watch and I don't recall him mentioning anything about skill challenges in anything previous.

 

[Parmandur]

It was mentioned earlier that Mearles had twitched about using skill challenges to manage simplified battle situations does anyone have a link they could share. My google fu has failed me.

You will find this one relevant, I think: https://youtu.be/8Rrly-bBwzA

He followed up a bit about that and discussed 4E in the following week: https://youtu.be/ZHOnfAFsNrY

 

[Parmandur]

Also of potential interest: Mearls is starting up a live Twitch series, "Heroes of the Vale," set in Fallcrest and his version of the Nentir Vale. He talks about it here, and the genre difference from stock D&D:
https://youtu.be/NjFz8IciRmQ

 

[Manbearcat]

But their resources don't deplete. They can keep swinging the sword (magic or not) and making skill checks all the live long day.

The game is designed around "punishing," yes. Anything less can obviously be perfectly fun, folks do it all the time. But if a group doesn't care about resource attrition, then they are unlikely to be concerned with relative resource use.

Right because hit points don't create a "day" limit for everyone... and often moreso for the
classes who melee more.

And again, the problem is:

(1) 5e's balance is centered around a workday of 6-8 encounters. Let us assume 8 encounters; 5 Combat and some combination of 3 that is broken out into Exploration and Social.

(2) Given 1 (which is already a fair chunk of meaningful encounters), you're going to have how many truly weighty decision-points worth of attrition that wear-out a spellcaster's loadout? Regardless what that number is, its going to be roughly the same value n for the level 9 wizard (let's use the Diviner) who has:

- only 5th level spell slots (and the related ability to up-level lower spells to there)
- 14 spell slots
- 4 Cantrips
- 2 uses of Portent
- 1 use of Divination refresh up to level 5
- Rituals up to level 5

...as it is for the 18th level Diviner who has:

- up to 9th level spell slot (and the related ability to up-level lower spells to there)
- 20 spell slots
- 5 Cantrips
- 3 uses of Portent
- Divination refresh up to level 9
- Rituals up to max level
- An At-Will level 1 spell and an At-Will level 2 spell (that they can switch out on Long Rest)


If you can't see how the intersection of (1) and (2) pushes back hard against the idea of "martial at-wills balance things out", then its virtually impossible to have this conversation. In order for it to 5e's attrition model to work, you would probably need roughly n * 2 minimum weighty decision-points worth of Diviner attrition for the scaling of resource breadth, potency (MANY more "win condition" spells = less total decision-points required to resolve a conflict), and proliferation from the level 9 Diviner to the level 18. That means a HUGE (nonsensical) workday of something like 14-16 encounters (minimum probably).

 

[Garthanos]

Hit dice, short rests, healing potions (assumed in the PHB) Cleric spell slots...

Not entirely sure what the point is 4e FIGHTERS had obnoxious amounts of hit points and healing surges and were still often the ones with the fewest HS at the end of it all.

Indefinite healing was a 3e thing if you had the cash for potions it's typically presented as a bad thing. I know it makes my 1e sensibilities "as old as they are" cringe and it was possible even in 1e to over load with potions it was seen as tacky by most.

4e put limits on that magic that were not easy to overcome even though in some ways I would say that with everyone having other resources there were still real reasons to stop if they had popped the lid off (and let money be cashed for hit points) . There was however a ritual at high level that also let you get a full days rest for a healthy bit of money. And a King Arthur type using one of my martial practices does similarly too. So it could be overcome. I think we can safely say Epic has some things which are ummm weird and I think harder to predict. A DM might well put a fountain of youth type pool in a Dungeon or a fairy glade with a time synch to enable that Refreshing of party resources in a way that fit the story pace.

The hit point limit is quite real generally speaking it's only because of it they can compute even ballpark combat balance for 5e.

did you notice the part where at Level 18 the Champion becomes Wolverine and will never be below half HP in a day, before considering Hit Dice...

The level 26 character in 4e ie analogous level to the Champion might be coming back from the dead of their own volition and someone casts that ritual I mentioned earlier its only paragon level but scales so its not so cheap at level 26 (but does take an hour which you might get reduced to 1/2 hour by a feat or something similar) half an hour break and the party is at full not bad for preparing for a finale (paragon or epic).

 

[Garthanos]

You will find this one relevant, I think: https://youtu.be/8Rrly-bBwzA

That one has him discussing designing environmental hazards a bit like immobile creatures.

Just reminds me of environmental powers (which I think he has mentioned too)

He followed up a bit about that and discussed 4E in the following week: https://youtu.be/ZHOnfAFsNrY

Talks about paladin heavily which I was asking about.