D&D 4E Mike Mearls on how 4E could have looked

[BryonD]

Page 42 of the DMG gives an example involving swinging on a chandelier and clearly demonstrates that the DC of this task is a function of the character's level and has nothing to do with the chandelier. According to the DMG a higher level character would need a higher check to swing from that chandelier and a lower level character would need a lower number.

Now, it is easy to conclude that no decent DM would ever blindly apply this to wooden doors. So there becomes a point of debate over intent. But the RAW is completely clear.

And, keep in mind that 4E was over and over praised for being "easy to DM" and "good for new DMs". I have no doubt in my mind that there were inexperienced DMs out there who simply looked at p42, followed the instructions and changed the DC of the door purely based on mechanics and rules.

I'm also sure that there were times when DMs semi-blindly used page 42 with a "this is a particularly well built door". And in the general it is hard to be critical of this, but if the DC is know before any other details are known (mechanics before fiction) then it can quickly get silly to have a "particularly well built door" in every burnt out shack because the party level calls for it.

Again, I totally get that quality DMs would see this as no issue. There are warts on 3E that quality DMs can easily work around. So this topic is really a draw in "the edition wars". But it is on a long list of items in 4E that led to the overall marketplace acceptance being what 4E was rather than what "4e could have been".

 

[Garthanos]

The DC 15 door can be insignificant at higher Tiers.

And I am sure the specialist can... good thing every high level party has a specialist in the needed function so a barn door doesnt block them

 

[Parmandur]

And I am sure the specialist can... good thing every high level party has a specialist in the needed function so a barn door doesnt block them

In the off chance that a given table doesn't have somebody who can succeed consistently at a Moderate task, the DM should be tailoring the challenges in other directions.

 

[Garthanos]

Here is an example and no it's not the specialist. My groups have smaller numbers of players ie having a specialist is far from guaranteed.

Mechanically a Malediction invoker (*Witch in fiction) worst skill is her bluff skill sounds weird but no damnit she isn't the deceiver she is a revealer (she is actually somewhat better at athletics and has high stamina) if at 6th level she were forced by circumstances to bluff past the mayor she could pull it off reasonably mechanically (say the difficulty is still the 15 because I am too lazy) It would be a challenging roll of 13 to succeed and fun if she didnt succeed even as it would highlight that hating lying thing rather well ie its not bad story to branch in a significant way.

At level 23 she would in fiction be about 1.5 tiers away (perhaps it doesn't matter much that she is now Chosen of the Goddess or does it?) and even though she still hates lying has masses more confidence and knows far more what is plausible nope no training specifically in bluffing but has the endowments of adventuring life experience and would based on pure mechanics in 4e still succeed on a roll of 3 ie she would have a 90 percent chance (with some minor variations by choices) of getting through it.

At level 23 I wouldn't have even considered it being the Mayor with his DC15 she "needed" to bluff past because it's no longer matching the fiction for that to be an obstacle, but it also just wouldn't have mechanical backing.

 

[Shasarak]

What is the everything else?

Everything else is everything, Attack, AC, HPs, Damage, Powers, Everything. You dont have a minion Ogre because in the fiction you have a Ogre that only has 1 HP. You have a minion Ogre because the game mechanics need to add extra XP to balance the fight.

Level is a mechanical device. It informs the referee about appropriate mechanics to use, via the monster/NPC-building rules and the DC-by-level chart.

Exactly you dont run around trying to defend Level as some kind of fictional narrative, or AC as some kind of fictional narrative. Why does a level 8 Ogre have a different AC then a level 11 Ogre? Because level 11 monsters have higher ACs then level 8 monsters.

Tier of play is a notion about fiction, and that informs what the fiction is. And we choose fiction first, then mechanics.

Except we dont. By choosing a tier of play we have already chosen the mechanics. Heroic tier levels 1 to 10, Paragon 11 to 20. Its all mechanics first.

First, the fiction: I shove my hands into the forge to hold down the hammer so the artificers can work it. Then, the mechanics: The DC for that Endurance check is such-and-such.

Except that first the mechanics of a skill challenge require the PC to use his best skills. So first the mechanics high Endurance and second the fiction shove my hands into the forge and hope the DM rolls with it.

First the fiction: The dwarf who can hold down hammers in furnaces comes across a hobgoblin phalanx. Then, the mechanics: That phalanx is a 16th level gargantuan swarm.

First the mechanics, at the Dwarfs level he needs to face a creature of at least level 16, then the fiction its a hobgoblin swarm.

What if he is even higher level then its a level 21 swarm of I dont know Dire hobgoblins or oh yeah Vrocks. Yeah Vrocks sound like a level 21 swarm.

The reason an ogre is a standard for 8th level PCs and a minion for mid-paragon ones is because the mechanics follow the fiction.

No, as I have already shown you need a minion for mid-paragon players so you just call it an Ogre. If it really was fiction first then the Ogre that mid-paragon players were fighting would still be the Ogre that 8th level players were fighting. That is how fiction works, its not some kind of Schrodinger Ogre that only coalesces into its final form when you open the box and reveal what level you are. We already have that creature, it is a Boggart.

No one in this thread has given a consistent account of how DC-setting works in 5e, as far as the relation between fiction and mechanics is concerned.

But as far as I can tell it is mechanics first: we don't have a prior, in-fiction conception of how tough a 15th level fighter is, and then set DCs and stat up creatures that respond to that. We don't know how tough a 15th level fighter is until we see what s/he can do, taking certain mechanics published in the MM as given.

That's not fiction-first. It's mechanics first.

As far as I am aware the DCs in 5e dont change just because the PCs have leveled up. You are not always needing to roll a 12 to open a lock at every level because this lock is a slightly stronger lock then last level.

How do you determine a DC in 4e? Simple fiction first. Oh wait no, you look up the level chart that tells you the DC. Just like when you are doing your skill challenges.

 

[Garthanos]

In the off chance that a given table doesn't have somebody who can succeed consistently at a Moderate task, the DM should be tailoring the challenges in other directions.

Maybe so, Maybe no - it should be noted I generally argue 4e also over rewards specialization so I am at least being consistent.

 

[Shasarak]

It seems, in this discussion, people keep smuggling in “HP are meat”, likely even unbeknownst to them.

We’re likely having a stealth “HP are/n’t meat” discussion with the Minion conversation.

Hit Missing is a completely different conversation.

Although interestingly a "normal" Ogre can be Hit Missed to death while its "minion" will be absolutely fine.

 

[Garthanos]

OK one assertion I have been tracking down is that 4e style play can be leveraged in 5e. In fact probably wouldn't be participating in the conversation if that werent on the table.

I am aware of a number of things valuable for that.

1) allowing people to take a short rest by 4e standards simply by making a skill check of one form or another (it might be a survival one) or something else I know some who are not meticulous just use 4e rules for both this and flanking.

You are allowing short rest types more in combat pop than those who rely on dailies. If classes who use Dailies actually are balanced in combat at low levels well I am not sure I want to mess with that. But if we make that check somewhat difficult? but fade out most of the time as you level up.

2) Using minions almost exactly like they are in 4e.

https://theangrygm.com/more-grist-for-the-mill-minion-groups-in-dd-5e/

Or 2a) ideas about using monster roles

https://rumorsofwarcomic.com/2015/09/rescuing-4e-monster-roles/

3) General competence for heros... it seems skill based resolution is now more uncertain than it was as you advance. I keep feeling bounded accuracy is fighting the flavor. And several like @Manbearcat think the problem of non-combat uber mages has been compounded. Is there a way to break this?

4) Using a healthy amount of magic items to up the zing of martial types in other tiers. (someone mentioned they thought the Adventurers League might have done this? ) might be a tool to address the fade of out of combat zing.

5) Monsters seem boring the Ogre presented looks like it might be an Ogre skirmisher with all the interesting bits torn off and left by the way side ... and yes I have heard a lot about pulling monster abilities forward into 5e too.

 

[Parmandur]

Maybe so, Maybe no - it should be noted I generally argue 4e also over rewards specialization so I am at least being consistent.

That's fair: I've been maintaining that 5E just straight up has the same Skill system as 4E.

 

[Garthanos]

In the off chance that a given table doesn't have somebody who can succeed consistently at a Moderate task, the DM should be tailoring the challenges in other directions.

Sure there is always a certain measure of adjusting the adventures to the heros. Although it may indeed get boring if the heroes can always pick routes to success that fit their best skills.

Putting the chosen one on the hot seat with situation involving bluff is currently on my list as interesting