False truisms in 5th edition

[Parmandur]

In practice, it's pretty difficult to run anyone out of resources in a day, unless the DM is intentionally going over-and-beyond or the players are being extremely reckless.

By the time a fighter has more attacks than the barbarian, the barbarian has four rages per day, and gains a fifth at the following level. While it's possible to fit six encounters into the daily XP budget, most of them will be on the easier side, and nobody needs to expend a limited resource on an easy fight. While the fighter may be the star of show in easy encounters, the barbarian will have more than enough juice to steal the spotlight in any fight worth talking about.

So, apparently, the expected range of actual play based on playtesting is 20 rounds of combat across 6-8 separate encounters between long rests. Certainly the game isn't limited to that, but if you aren't even pushing the resource game to the limits things will be off.

 

[MechaPilot]

Even so, the Fighter will be making more attacks that do more damage (Champion) or coincide with spells (Eldritch Knight). Sure, the Barbarian is great at fighting, especially if given the room to Nova without consequences by the DM, but the Fighter is still measurably better at several aspects of combat.

Like I said, not that I've seen. Maybe the published adventures just aren't very good, but I've only seen the barbarian PC hit its rage limit once. Also, the champion fighter is only making two attacks (level 9), and the expanded crit range of the champion isn't a ton of damage (on one average attack, weighted for a 40% chance of missing, even the 18-20 crit range increases damage by only 0.45 points). And yeah, that's an extra attack compared to the barbarian in theory, but the barbarian has the Great Weapon Master feat and often gets the extra attack for either bringing an enemy to zero hps or rolling a crit.

Plus, with the bear totem the barbarian character takes half damage from virtually everything; the one in my game did take half damage from literally everything because he got that dwarf helmet from PotA that gives resistance to psychic damage.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

So, apparently, the expected range of actual play based on playtesting is 20 rounds of combat across 6-8 separate encounters between long rests. Certainly the game isn't limited to that, but if you aren't even pushing the resource game to the limits things will be off.

I agree that something is off with the game, as evidenced by resources frequently going un-spent. PCs have far too many resources to burn through each day, given the expectations set forth by the XP budget, and barbarian rages are far from the only example of that.

The question of how to address the issue of too many resources is probably better left for another thread.

 

[Shiroiken]

APPARENT TRUISM OF 5E

"It's not EXACTLY how *I* would have designed it"
-every internet poster

5E is not perfect; nor is it meant to be. It's meant to appeal to the largest number of overall players. If someone (such as the OP) has such a problem with it, they are far better off finding a game more to their liking. There are hundreds of RPGs available, so I'm sure they're likely to find one.

As for class power, IME the core 4 are among the most reliably powerful classes in the game. However, because most of their capabilities aren't very flashy, they are regularly sidelined for more interesting (if "non-optimal") classes & sub-classes, because most people don't believe "Char-Op 4 Life"

 

[Parmandur]

Like I said, not that I've seen. Maybe the published adventures just aren't very good, but I've only seen the barbarian PC hit its rage limit once. Also, the champion fighter is only making two attacks (level 9), and the expanded crit range of the champion isn't a ton of damage (on one average attack, weighted for a 40% chance of missing, even the 18-20 crit range increases damage by only 0.45 points). And yeah, that's an extra attack compared to the barbarian in theory, but the barbarian has the Great Weapon Master feat and often gets the extra attack for either bringing an enemy to zero hps or rolling a crit.

Plus, with the bear totem the barbarian character takes half damage from virtually everything; the one in my game did take half damage from literally everything because he got that dwarf helmet from PotA that gives resistance to psychic damage.

The Champions extended crit range is the equivalent of an extra damage die on every hit: Mearls has detailed how the Brute's extra damage die is precisely equivalent in a standard adventure day.

Sure, the published adventures need to be adjusted on a per party basis.

 

[Parmandur]

I agree that something is off with the game, as evidenced by resources frequently going un-spent. PCs have far too many resources to burn through each day, given the expectations set forth by the XP budget, and barbarian rages are far from the only example of that.

The question of how to address the issue of too many resources is probably better left for another thread.

It's pretty simple, the DM needs to tailor the challenges to drain resources and prevent resource regeneration. This is a table issue, not a system issue. To be honest, this is probably mainly a problem l, insofar as it is a problem at all, for folks with experienced tables who know how to manage a tight ship for their party.

 

[Yunru]

By kiting them of course. The single most effective strategy (works on the Tarrasque, too, so I hear) in D&D since the D&D world is just an infinite flat plane.

Nah, you kite them into a chokepoint, or away from the village. Hopefully.
Because once you kill enough at the choke point, it blocks it [emoji14]

 

[Monayuris]

I have taken this idea to heart, and it's one of the things I am thoroughly enjoying about DMing a megadungeon. I'm not the one setting the difficulty level the players face. The players themselves make that decision when they decide whether or not go down the stairs or explore more of their current level.

Exactly, I love mega-dungeons. I put extra work into making them living breathing places and I make it relatively easy for players to find access to lower levels. (I'm especially fond of elevators and stairs that go down multiple levels). It does put the challenge in the players' hands

 

[Ovinomancer]

Like I said, not that I've seen. Maybe the published adventures just aren't very good, but I've only seen the barbarian PC hit its rage limit once. Also, the champion fighter is only making two attacks (level 9), and the expanded crit range of the champion isn't a ton of damage (on one average attack, weighted for a 40% chance of missing, even the 18-20 crit range increases damage by only 0.45 points). And yeah, that's an extra attack compared to the barbarian in theory, but the barbarian has the Great Weapon Master feat and often gets the extra attack for either bringing an enemy to zero hps or rolling a crit.

Plus, with the bear totem the barbarian character takes half damage from virtually everything; the one in my game did take half damage from literally everything because he got that dwarf helmet from PotA that gives resistance to psychic damage.

What feats did the champion fighter have? I'm not sure you're comparing classes here rather than the impact of feats.

 

[MechaPilot]

The Champions extended crit range is the equivalent of an extra damage die on every hit: Mearls has detailed how the Brute's extra damage die is precisely equivalent in a standard adventure day.

Expanded crit range only increases your chance of a critical hit by 5%, and then by another 5% when you crit on 18-20. With an 18-20 crit range that's only a 15% chance of getting an additional die of damage. Assuming a 60% hit chance, how does a 15% chance of a crit work out to getting an extra damage die on 60% of your attempted attacks?


Say the champion is fighting with a d8 weapon (because he's sword & board, as the one in my game was).
That's an average of 4.5 damage per hit.

Assuming a 60% hit chance and a crit on a nat 20 only we have the following weights:
40% chance of no damage (0)
55% chance of average damage (4.5)
5% chance of double average damage (9)

That gives us a weighted average damage per attack roll of 2.925 calculated as follows:
((0 * 8 = 0) + (11 * 4.5 = 49.5) + (1 * 9 = 9) = 58.5) / 20 = 2.925 per swing


Now, assuming a 60% hit chance and a crit on a nat 18-20 we have the following weights:
40% chance of no damage (0)
50% chance of average damage (4.5)
10% chance of double average damage (9)

That gives us a weighted average damage per attack roll of 2.925 calculated as follows:
((0 * 8 = 0) + (10 * 4.5 = 45) + (2 * 9 = 18) = 63) / 20 = 3.15 per swing

3.15 - 2.925 = 0.225 increased damage per attack roll for having an 18-20 crit range