Balancing out Racial Abilities

[WhosDaDungeonMaster]

I found this guide: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ViqLSEN67mmd2Lo_OJ-H5YX0fccsfI97kFaqx7V1Dmw/edit ,but he has darkvision at .5 points

@James Grover , this should help you balance the races as he has already broken it down to a point system

Thanks. I'll look through it to see if anything in it can clarify why the races were built the way they were.

UPDATE:

Well, I looked through the article and it again reinforces the issue of imbalance that exists IMO. According to their measurements, Dwarf, Elf, and Half-Elf all have the highest scores (with Dwarf and Elf being well above the Human rating of 6). Also, Halflings and Dragonborn are significantly below Human 6 as well. While I don't feel they should all rate exactly 6, having them range from 5 to 7 (even 5.5 to 6.5 if possible) would be better than 4.5 to 8. And these are only the base scores, adding subrace abilities increases the ratings greatly in some cases, such as Drow adding +3!

Value from article:


Dwarf (+5) = 7.5-8
Elf (+4.5) = 7-7.5
Halfling (+2.5) = 4 - 4.5
Human = 6
Dragonborn = 4.5
Gnome (+3.5) = 5.5
Half Elf = 6.5
Half Orc = 5.5
Tiefling = 5.5

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I'm definitely with you with the kenku. I think I'd get rid of the whole curse backstory although having said that I might use them to represent something like the cast down arrakoa race from world of Warcraft (without the mimicry curse).

I don’t mind the curse being why they can’t fly, or even if their speech was stunted, and they could fully communicate in Corvid vocalization. Stunted humanoid speech would still be annoying in play, I suspect, but at least it wouldn’t have that extra rotten tang of “they can’t create new things” or whatever awful rubbish.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Thanks. I'll look through it to see if anything in it can clarify why the races were built the way they were.

UPDATE:

Well, I looked through the article and it again reinforces the issue of imbalance that exists IMO. According to their measurements, Dwarf, Elf, and Half-Elf all have the highest scores (with Dwarf and Elf being well above the Human rating of 6). Also, Halflings and Dragonborn are significantly below Human 6 as well. While I don't feel they should all rate exactly 6, having them range from 5 to 7 (even 5.5 to 6.5 if possible) would be better than 4.5 to 8. And these are only the base scores, adding subrace abilities increases the ratings greatly in some cases, such as Drow adding +3!

Value from article:


Dwarf (+5) = 7.5-8
Elf (+4.5) = 7-7.5
Halfling (+2.5) = 4 - 4.5
Human = 6
Dragonborn = 4.5
Gnome (+3.5) = 5.5
Half Elf = 6.5
Half Orc = 5.5
Tiefling = 5.5

Comparing base races sans subraces is complete folly. Many races have a large chunk of their power in their subraces.

Halflings are also underrated in that analysis as a base race, but also Lightfoota can hide when only lightly obscured by a creature larger than them. That makes them “4-4.5” +a good feat.

And the Halflings Luck feature is very good. +2 to Dex is also very good.

 

[guachi]

Here's the enworld thread on reverse engineering races.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...mp-D-5e-race-design-and-over-40-example-races

I can't seem to find where he incorporated races from Volo's even though I'm fairly certain I read his analysis of it. It changed some results, as I recall. In any event, here is a copy/paste from the pdf listing Core PHB and DMG races:

These abbreviated summaries are intended to show how canon races were created with the 12pt+lesser traits skeleton.
Human: 6x +1 ability score (12). Lesser Trait: one language is free choice

Human Variant: 2x +1 ability scores (4), feat (6, a feat is worth only 4 at 4th level), skill (2). Lesser Trait: one language is free choice.

Dwarf Base: +2Con (4), Speed 25 (-4), Weapon proficiencies (Martial melee x2 (1), Stone cunning (0.5), advantage on saves v. poison (0.5). Lesser traits: darkvision 60’, simple melee proficiencies x2, resistance to poison, Tool proficiency.

Hill Dwarf: Wis+1 (2), +1hp/level starting at first level (8, note hp seem to be worth more during the first tier of play).

Mountain Dwarf: +2Str (4), light armour proficiency (4), medium armour proficiency (2)

Elf Base: Dex+2 (4), perception skill (2). Lesser traits: Darkvision 60ft, fey ancestry, trance.

High Elf: Int+1 (2), 2x martial melee and 1x martial ranged 1 weapon proficiencies (2), cantrip (2). Lesser traits: 1x simple ranged weapon, extra language.

Wood Elf: Wis+1 (2), 2x martial melee and 1x martial ranged 1 weapon proficiencies (2), speed 35ft (0.5), mask of the wild (1.5). Lesser traits: simple ranged weapon proficiency.

Dark Elf: Cha+1 (2), sunlight sensitivity (-7), weapon proficiencies 2x martial melee and 1x martial ranged (2), cantrip (2), 2x combat spells each gained two levels after a wizard gains access to that spell level (3.5 each). Lesser traits: another 60ft of darkvision.

Eldarin: Int+1 (2), non-offensive 2nd level spell at 1st level (2), 2x martial melee and 1x martial ranged 1 weapon proficiencies (2).

Lesser traits: simple range weapon proficiency

Halfling Base: Dex+2 (4), Small size (-2), Speed 25ft (-4), Lucky (3.75), Brave (3.75), Halfling Nimbleness (4).

Lightfoot Halfling: Cha+1 (2), Naturally Stealthy (0.5). Lesser traits: nil

Stout Halfling: Con+1 (2) Advantage on poison saves (0.5). Lesser traits: resistance to poison.

Dragonborn: Str+2(4), Cha+1(2), Breath weapon (6). Lesser traits: damage resistance

Gnome Base: Int+2 (4), Small size (-2), Speed 25ft (-4), Advantage on Int saves against magic (4), Advantage on Wis saves against magic (4), Advantage on Cha saves against magic (4). Lesser trait: darvision 60ft.

Forest Gnome: Dex+1 (2), cantrip (2), speak with small beasts (1). Lesser traits:nil

Rock Gnome: Con+1 artificer’s lore (0.5), (2), tinker (2.5). Lesser traits: nil

Half Elf: Cha+2 (4), +1 to two other ability scores (4), two skills (4). Lesser traits: Darkvision 60ft, fey ancestry, extra language.

Half Orc: Str+2 (4), Con+1(2), Intimidation skill (2), Relentless Endurance (2), Savage Attacks (2). Lesser Traits: Darkvision.

Tiefling: Int+1(2), Cha+2(4), 2nd level combat spell cast at 3rd level (3.5), Hellish Rebuke as a damaging power (0.5), cantrip(2).

Lesser Traits: Darkvision 60ft, resistance to fire damage.

Dragonborn: Str+2(4), Cha+1(2), Dragonborn breath weapon (6). Lesser traits: damage resistance.

Aasimar: Wis+1(2), Cha+2(4), Light cantrip (2), 5th level Daylight once (4). Lesser Traits: Darkvision 60ft, resistance to necrotic and radiant damage.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Fey Ancestry and Trance aren’t in the same tier of ability as Stonecunning. Whether darkvision is is entirely DM dependent. It’s a significant trait in my games, but not a factor of any significance at all in other games.

But advantage vs charm and immunity to sleep+being awake and aware while resting aren’t nothing features.

 

[bedir than]

Kenku and Kobolds are the only published races I homebrew in 5e. Kenku because I find the “can only mimic” thing to be obnoxious adds nothing to the game. Kobolds because “You’re a craven coward” as a racial ability is cringe as hell, and I refuse to have it in my game, or have a race with a negative stat mod and fairly standard power level without that penalty, in a game that doesn’t normally have stat penalties.

If I was running a world with Kobolds I would have playable versions have one of the abilities from the Monster section of Volo's Guide -- Dragonic Resistence, Heart of the Dragon, Weapon Invention, or 2 cantrips

 

[5ekyu]

I think the chart shows pretty well what balance is about, and of course it is subjective, but as I have also said, I do not want this thread to be about trying to dissuade me or argue that the races are balanced when I do not believe that to be the case. Are they completely out of whack? No, but enough that I feel a change is warranted.



We will have to disagree on this. Regardless of setting, class, etc., if you remove all the other variables, do the features for each race balance out? IMO the answer is clearly no. That is what I am trying to change.

"Regardless of setting, class, etc., if you remove all the other variables..."
... then you have zero basis for comparison without setting and all the other variables for a set of abilities as diverse as the race features - and classes are not at all balanced *without considering class.* That was never jntended.

If you want to balance then regardless of class you need to just boil them all down to a set of block choices - like say the "build a background" does.

 

[WhosDaDungeonMaster]

As this thread is starting to do exactly what I didn't want, I will not be replying to any further posts concerning what is valued at what, etc. since it is all subjective. What value does X have to Y? Which is "better"? These are pointless questions. I have already evaluated them in the comparison shown on the table in the OP.

Now, for the people following this thread who agree with my intent, once I have revised races more balanced to my liking available, I will be posting them. Will they be "balanced" to others, probably not for many of you, but Friday I will review them with my players and discuss the proposed changes. After which, I will write them up and post them over the weekend.

For the people that have been offering suggestions for changes, thank you. It is appreciated.

 

[TaranTheWanderer]

Were you thinking of making subraces for human?

 

[WhosDaDungeonMaster]

Were you thinking of making subraces for human?

Right now I am going the other way and eliminating subraces altogether. They will still exist, but changes will be superficial at best (such as Drow speaking Undercommon). I know many players like having subraces, but I feel too much of it is fluff. If I come up with meaningful and distinct subrace abilities, I will probably keep them.