What solution for "Cantrips don't feel magical"?

[The Crimson Binome]

You could ban cantrips and have wizards name their crossbows "Magic".

If a wizard is using Intelligence to make attacks with their crossbow, then that raises a whole new category of objection.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

In two different threads recently there were comments that Cantrips make magic too common, so it doesn't feel magical. They were often accompanied by ideas to restrict the number of cantrips per rest.

The issue for me is that there are a lot more actions per day then skill slots, all the way up through 20th. Here's a breakdown I did in an earlier thread:



The baseline we have from this is that casters will be mostly not-spells until double digits, and even at 20 will still have a good chunk of actions more than spell slots.

Back in pre-cantrip editions casters needed to default to mundane solutions - wizards throwing darts, etc. Using mundane solutions also does not make casters feel magical.

The idea of a few cantrips per day doesn't work - it still leaves mundane solutions for most actions until the highest of levels.

So how do we combine the contradictory ideas that (a) at-will magic makes magic feel mundane that several people have stated, and (b) have that casters can contribute meaningfully in a magical way without having to resort to mundane actions? I don't think a direct compromise works, so what solutions orthogonal to mundane=mundane and at-will=mundane can we find?

Apologies if this is a repeat, but could we steal the basic concepts of magic in PBTA games like Monster of The Week?

You roll on all cantrips, regardless of effect. Several “glitches” are determined ahead of time.

On a roll of <=X, you fail to activate the cantrip.

On a roll of X+1 to x+Y, it’s a mixed success. The Cantrip works, and the player chooses a glitch, with DM approval

On a roll above X+Y, it’s a total success. It works, no glitch.

On a Natural 20 on a cantrip that can’t crit, you can choose a secondary benefit, like imposing disadvantage on a check, or giving advantage to an ally.

Just as a very very basic outline of the sort of thing we could do.

In this way, I’d also consider eliminating many cantrips and folding what thy do into the appropriate magic skill, and giving that magic skill to the appropriate class and subclasses as a bonus skill. So, Spare the Dying is a Religion Skill option for anyone with the Spellcasting feature and the skill trained?

Then thighs like Arcana being able to attempt to disable magic traps and manipulate portals could work, with risks.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

Your gun analogy is flawed on the grounds that without demonstrating your magical ability, only the player knows their character is capable of magic. A wizard isn't a gun. A wizard is an elf, or a human, or a dwarf or whatever, with a concealed carry permit. But if that person never reveals that they have such a permit, or that they're carrying, then that "wizard" is really just any other person.

YMMV, but D&D is a class-based game, and the distinctions between classes is overwhelming. At my table, you can tell who a wizard is by looking at them.

And in either case, you still know that you can cast Fireball, which has profound effects on how your entire party acts.

 

[Rod Staffwand]

As a serious response to the OP, I don't think players of wizards should expect to overcoming all-problems all-the-time with magic in order to feel magical. If you imagine your PC as magical, then they'll feel magical.

As a corollary, would you expect a fighter to solve all-problems, all-the-time with fighting? Does interacting non-violently with NPCs make them seem less fightery? Must a fighter hack apart an entire dungeon room to search for treasure or tend to a fallen comrade by fighting them back to health?

However, as a solution I would posit that a game that limits at-will casting for "magic is mysterious" tonal purposes is a game wherein "magic is special" and, thus, magic-using characters are special and will feel so more than even other campaigns. If you're playing such a campaign, you'll likely not be too worried about the expectations of a bog-standard game and just get on with it. Honestly, why is this an issue?

 

[Maxperson]

YMMV, but D&D is a class-based game, and the distinctions between classes is overwhelming. At my table, you can tell who a wizard is by looking at them.

That hasn't been the case since 2e. 5e is now the worst "offender" when it comes to one class looking like another. How are you going to tell the difference between the religious dwarven wizard in full plate who carries the hammer of his family and the symbol of his family's god, and the dwarven cleric in full plate with the hammer? Even in 3e I liked to play combat wizards sometimes and had them wearing a chain shirt and a sword, making them look like anything from a wizard to a rogue to a cleric to a fighter to a bard...

 

[Krachek]

Sorry folks, but we will no more live again the mystery of our first games, or first book of fantasy.
After a while, and for some more than 30 years of DnD, you feel the magic only if you want to.
Rules, setup, won’t help.

 

[jgsugden]

I do not find this to be a problem at all. The 'magic feel' is something you can alter with more of a magical description.

However, if you do find this to be a problem: Increase the number of cantrips a class gains by 2. Give them a recharge (like monster abilities - 1 in 6 chance to recharge each round). Make Eldritch Blast autorecharge so that you do not mess with Warlocks. The randomness will give them more of a mystical feel.

 

[Maxperson]

Sorry folks, but we will no more live again the mystery of our first games, or first book of fantasy.
After a while, and for some more than 30 years of DnD, you feel the magic only if you want to.
Rules, setup, won’t help.

This is provably false. I proved it in my 3e games where some of my players have been gaming with me for 15 years, and in one case for 30+ years. As soon as I reduced the frequency with which magic items showed up, and made those that did show up better and more fun, the players actually showed excitement over finding them again. They went out of their way to let me know that magic items felt magical again. It wasn't a desire of theirs that made them feel that way, it was my altered rules and setup for magic items.

Rules and setup can and do affect feel, even if you have been gaming for a long, long time. I also proved your claim false in this thread. Cantrips as they stand cheapen the feel of magic for me. If I alter the rules, though, and make them a limited resource, *BANG* the feel for me is changed just like that.

 

[Xeviat]

One thought would be to take away all attack cantrips and then reintroduce those as wand/implement attacks. It would then feel like something the spellcaster has as a tool without it being their own power

 

[5ekyu]

Yes there is such a rule. It's on page 201 of the PHB.

"A cantrip is a spell that can be cast at will, without using a spell slot and without being prepared in advance. Repeated practice has fixed the spell in the caster’s mind and infused the caster with the magic needed to produce the effect over and over. A cantrip’s spell level is 0."

That's the rule. At will, and has the magic to keep doing it over and over. No other limits other than those placed on them by combat. Since you can only produce one cantrip a round in combat, even outside of combat you can only produce a cantrip once every six seconds.



There is no absence of a rule, though. The rule is that you can cast cantrips 24/7 without limitations other than how many you can cast a round.

Point me to the 24/7 part.

Over and over is not 24/7.

I can watch Deadpool over and over but after just a couple in a row, I am worn out.

I can eat Hershey Lisses over and over, but not 24/7.

You are inserting the 24/7 to create the perception.

Sigh... and the rules for striking things with weapons dont say the weapon will take damage and break down from repeated use any more than the cantrip spell says you get tired after 1000 cantrips - but we have an example in the dmg talking about ruling.

In the context of that rules sections - the difference between slot spells and cantrips is made clear but its takes a particular intent to find a problem to read that as thousands and thousands of cantrips with no fatigue or other issues.

Consider this - in that world you imagine can folks makes gestures for hours on end without getting tired? Filibuster on end for hours without getting tired? Cantrips require one or both every casting but yet somehow you construe that saying over and over means forever?

Man, a 1st level wizard can talk non-stop for 1000 years eithout flinching then- or until the Xanathars rule hits him for lack of sleep/rest.

Having taught classes with gesture and speaking for hours - not near speaking every six seconds, I would say your imagining of what that rule means is way off... especially given the rules.

But if that floats your game boat, all power to you. Carry on.