What solution for "Cantrips don't feel magical"?

[Maxperson]

Okay, folks. Raise your hand if you've also seen this problem.

I see it. I think it was the reserve spells now that I think on it. That will teach me to post in haste.

 

[5ekyu]

Does it make sense for a PC to be able to swing multiple pounds of metal around every few seconds for an entire day? It doesn't to me. So yes, it would seem VERY wrong to me for that to happen.



I don't know where you are getting "Not magical enough" from. The problem is not a lack of magic, but too much magic.



That's marginally less unreasonable I guess. But I wouldn't let a fighter swing a sword for a 1000 rounds, either.

If you look at the DMG, you will see where they make a point for GM ruling about "use" beyond what the combat tracking round by round " stuff calls for.

There is no **rule** ssying you can cast a cantrip every sucmx secinds for a whole day without problem just like there is no rule saying you can swing a sword 10000 times a fmday nor a rule saying that swords wear out... But they make it cleat the GM should or can rule that a normal sword cant cut down a castle wall because the sword will wear down well before the wsll does.

Absence of a rule that forces per-use tracking does not imply unreasonable extrmes muchbless demand it.

As for you arguing cantrips use majes the game too magical, maybe this is not the thread i thought it was then.

Either way, arguing for/against mythical alternatives is pointless cuz obviously that other side of the fence remains great as long as its not actually seen.

There are some pretty goid benfits that come from the system and pretty good lessons learned from past play... But by all means lets see all those better mousetraps even the ones that seem to ignore lessons learned long ago.

 

[Rod Staffwand]

You could ban cantrips and have wizards name their crossbows "Magic".

 

[5ekyu]

It's all about how it feels. It feels very wrong for either magic or martial to be unlimited. I've already hit this issue with 3e warlocks. I've had players say that they will sit around for hours or days blasting through this wall or destroy that building with their eldritch blast.

See DMG for rules and recommendation that vould apply to the walls situations.

Just because its not vovered in combat time doesnt mean it is vanished from reality.

 

[5ekyu]

Okay, folks. Raise your hand if you've also seen this problem.

Not mr but if i did, would reference the DMG wall hacking example to resolve it.

 

[Maxperson]

If you look at the DMG, you will see where they make a point for GM ruling about "use" beyond what the combat tracking round by round " stuff calls for.

There is no **rule** ssying you can cast a cantrip every sucmx secinds for a whole day without problem just like there is no rule saying you can swing a sword 10000 times a fmday nor a rule saying that swords wear out... But they make it cleat the GM should or can rule that a normal sword cant cut down a castle wall because the sword will wear down well before the wsll does.

Yes there is such a rule. It's on page 201 of the PHB.

"A cantrip is a spell that can be cast at will, without using a spell slot and without being prepared in advance. Repeated practice has fixed the spell in the caster’s mind and infused the caster with the magic needed to produce the effect over and over. A cantrip’s spell level is 0."

That's the rule. At will, and has the magic to keep doing it over and over. No other limits other than those placed on them by combat. Since you can only produce one cantrip a round in combat, even outside of combat you can only produce a cantrip once every six seconds.

Absence of a rule that forces per-use tracking does not imply unreasonable extrmes muchbless demand it.

There is no absence of a rule, though. The rule is that you can cast cantrips 24/7 without limitations other than how many you can cast a round.

 

[Maxperson]

You could ban cantrips and have wizards name their crossbows "Magic".

I named mine Mike. Mike is so magical that they made a movie about it.

 

[Maxperson]

See DMG for rules and recommendation that vould apply to the walls situations.

Just because its not vovered in combat time doesnt mean it is vanished from reality.

Walls, or castle walls? The rules for castle walls would stop that situation. The rules for walls would not. Even doing very little damage would still eventually result in a destroyed normal wall or even a normal non-castle sized building.

 

[Umbran]

That's the rule. At will, and has the magic to keep doing it over and over. No other limits other than those placed on them by combat. Since you can only produce one cantrip a round in combat, even outside of combat you can only produce a cantrip once every six seconds.

There is no absence of a rule, though. The rule is that you can cast cantrips 24/7 without limitations other than how many you can cast a round.

Yes, we know.

But, as noted - technically there is not rule preventing a fighter from swinging their sword every six seconds, either, but you say you don't like that, and there's no explicit rule against it, when clearly, people can't actually do that, even with 18 Constitution.

The point is that the 5e ruleset does not claim to be comprehensive, or to have exactly zero places where they can be exploited by someone who wants to play the logicians game of "Well, there's nothing in the rules to say I can't!"

5e says, "rulings, not rules." You, as a GM, are *expected* to occasionally make rulings when a corner case gets a little silly. You are, in effect, part of the game system. This is not a flaw - it was found that trying to make a game bullet-proof has bad side effects. It is better to have a game that is good for what it is intended, and trust the GM when players step outside those bounds. And you don't need a rule - just apply something that makes sense to you at the time, and move on.

 

[Maxperson]

5e says, "rulings, not rules." You, as a GM, are *expected* to occasionally make rulings when a corner case gets a little silly. You are, in effect, part of the game system. This is not a flaw - it was found that trying to make a game bullet-proof has bad side effects. It is better to have a game that is good for what it is intended, and trust the GM when players step outside those bounds. And you don't need a rule - just apply something that makes sense to you at the time, and move on.

Yes, I understand that. If we just say, "rulings over rules.", though, every time something comes up, there'd be precious little to discuss about 5e. You can make a ruling about pretty much any issue that you encounter and just move on.

This thread is specifically about cantrips and the issues with them being at-will, so that's what I'm discussing.