What solution for "Cantrips don't feel magical"?

[Maxperson]

Why not? That's 100 minutes, not even two hours.

Each round there will be thrusts, parries and blocks with that multiple pounds of metal. People aren't built to be able to do that for 100 minutes of the day. Not without some super severe penalties, and probably not at all.

 

[Yunru]

Each round there will be thrusts, parries and blocks with that multiple pounds of metal. People aren't built to be able to do that for 100 minutes of the day. Not without some super severe penalties, and probably not at all.

You'd do an hour each day in training, and that's as a solid block. Less than 2 hours across an entire day sounds more than reasonable.

 

[Umbran]

Does it make sense for a PC to be able to swing multiple pounds of metal around every few seconds for an entire day? It doesn't to me. So yes, it would seem VERY wrong to me for that to happen.

But, would you put a rule in force or do a redesign of the combat system to absolutely prevent it, or would you make a ruling at the time based, say, off the exhaustion rules if someone in your game were in mind to try it?

What you are describing is an extreme hypothetical that is not expected to happen in practice for the vast majority of games - that does not suggest the need for a change in rules.

 

[Maxperson]

And yet, you don't seem to be advocating a game-mechanical change to prevent it from happening.

Why would I advocate for that to happen in a thread about magic?

If you're happy to leave those rules as they are, either because you know it's never, ever going to come up in-game or because you're happy that you'd be able to make a ruling on it in the highly unlikely event that it did occur, why do you feel uncomfortable applying precisely the same reasoning to cantrips?

I will be changing weapon swinging. What I'll probably go back to, since it has worked for me and my groups since 1e, is that after 10 rounds of swinging a weapon in a combat you have to make a con check or receive a penalty of -2 to hit and damage. If you succeed, you have to make another such check every 5 rounds, and the check gets harder to make.

I never limited wizards like that, because their spell slots already did that work for me. I'll probably have to institute some sort of similar mental/magical exhaustion check for the magical classes due to cantrips.

 

[WhosDaDungeonMaster]

Well, we have to ask whether this was an issue of the design of magic in the system, or an issue in the design of the encounter, that left "stand back and spam the same attack repeatedly" was a fairly reasonable approach.

Certainly reasonably... but still not "magical" in feeling. The same warlock could have just as easily been firing a missile weapon like a light crossbow or shortbow (granted, his EB as obviously more effective).

It was just after the boss encounter, and he was out of spell slots, so for over 10 rounds just keep "pew pew"ing away. Pretty much, just as mundane in feeling as his archer shooting arrows. Now, I can describe it as magically as I want, but that doesn't change the mechanic or the feeling.

That's why I don't like systems where casters can run out of slots. I much prefer drain and recharge systems.

 

[Maxperson]

But, would you put a rule in force or do a redesign of the combat system to absolutely prevent it, or would you make a ruling at the time based, say, off the exhaustion rules if someone in your game were in mind to try it?

What you are describing is an extreme hypothetical that is not expected to happen in practice for the vast majority of games - that does not suggest the need for a change in rules.

It's all about how it feels. It feels very wrong for either magic or martial to be unlimited. I've already hit this issue with 3e warlocks. I've had players say that they will sit around for hours or days blasting through this wall or destroy that building with their eldritch blast.

 

[WhosDaDungeonMaster]

I will be changing weapon swinging. What I'll probably go back to, since it has worked for me and my groups since 1e, is that after 10 rounds of swinging a weapon in a combat you have to make a con check or receive a penalty of -2 to hit and damage. If you succeed, you have to make another such check every 5 rounds, and the check gets harder to make.

I never limited wizards like that, because their spell slots already did that work for me. I'll probably have to institute some sort of similar mental/magical exhaustion check for the magical classes due to cantrips.

This reminds me of a system I implemented after the D20 SW came out with Vitality. I made it so characters lost one point of vitality in a round if they attacked or cast a spell, representing the fatigue that would set in. Now, that system also had Wounds for physical damage, so was very different in many ways.

Certainly there are any sort of system you could use, but when you consider rounds in 5E are only 6 seconds instead of a minute, 10 minutes of activity would be 60 rounds! Of course, by then, the character would likely be exhausted, but with 10 rounds in 5E only being one minute, I don't thin that should warrant any kind of check IMO.

However, it is up to you and your players, so if you have something that works for you-great!

 

[Umbran]

I've already hit this issue with 3e warlocks. I've had players say that they will sit around for hours or days blasting through this wall or destroy that building with their eldritch blast.

Okay, folks. Raise your hand if you've also seen this problem.

 

[MarkB]

I will be changing weapon swinging. What I'll probably go back to, since it has worked for me and my groups since 1e, is that after 10 rounds of swinging a weapon in a combat you have to make a con check or receive a penalty of -2 to hit and damage. If you succeed, you have to make another such check every 5 rounds, and the check gets harder to make.

I never limited wizards like that, because their spell slots already did that work for me. I'll probably have to institute some sort of similar mental/magical exhaustion check for the magical classes due to cantrips.

That's a reasonable solution. Certainly a lot better than banning cantrips or using limited slots.

 

[Yunru]

Okay, folks. Raise your hand if you've also seen this problem.

Outside of hypotheticals?