The Karate Kid: A Guide to Monk/Druid Multiclassing

[Yunru]

Post 11 of 11

 

[Blue]

I like the concept, but both monk and druid are very dependent on class level, not character level. It's like there's little natural synergy except for unarmed defense occasionally raising AC and the extra martial arts attack.

Monk levels don't increase wildshape CR, nor casting. Until you reach high levels of Monk the unarmed damage is probably no/minimal increase over a druid form.

Druid levels don't help get to extra attack, don't advance monk unarmed or Ki points.

This does give a strong tier 1 & 2 character - and that's not something to be dismissed since that's where most play time seems to happen.

But ignoring Elemental forms as not much synergy discounts how improved they are over beast forms already. Is a monk/druid better at physical then a straight druid with elemental form? The straight druid would also have the advantage casting when not wildshaped. I worry this won't keep up.

Or is the idea to have an unbalanced growth as primary - monk 2 and the rest druid for unarmored defense, movement, extra martial arts attack, and ki. Or Moon Druid 2 for wild shape extra HPs/form's movement and then go the rest Monk?

 

[Yunru]

I like the concept, but both monk and druid are very dependent on class level, not character level. It's like there's little natural synergy except for unarmed defense occasionally raising AC and the extra martial arts attack.

Monk levels don't increase wildshape CR, nor casting. Until you reach high levels of Monk the unarmed damage is probably no/minimal increase over a druid form.

Druid levels don't help get to extra attack, don't advance monk unarmed or Ki points.

This does give a strong tier 1 & 2 character - and that's not something to be dismissed since that's where most play time seems to happen.

But ignoring Elemental forms as not much synergy discounts how improved they are over beast forms already. Is a monk/druid better at physical then a straight druid with elemental form? The straight druid would also have the advantage casting when not wildshaped. I worry this won't keep up.

Or is the idea to have an unbalanced growth as primary - monk 2 and the rest druid for unarmored defense, movement, extra martial arts attack, and ki. Or Moon Druid 2 for wild shape extra HPs/form's movement and then go the rest Monk?

I do plan on going over this exact thing along with some sample builds (it's what's taking me so long, in part). The crib notes are that Extra Attack makes up for the srop in offense (and then some), while your higher AC partially compensates for the lack of HP higher CR critters have (except CR 3, it seems). Whether to go beyond Monk 5 depends on whether you want more Ki for your Ki abilities, or bigger CR forms. Given the official high CR beasts, you'll want to be Monk.

A karate kid should play well from 3rd to 16th level, although tier 4 will be on a martial's level rather than a spellcaster's.

It's better to consider levels in Druid to be like MCing Rogue for Sneak Attack: Every three levels you get a boost to your damage.

One thing to note is how good Way of the Long Death is for boosting a low CR creature's usefulness.

Sorry if I'm a bit rambly, I'm ill at the moment.

Edit: As for elemental forms, in terms of offense and defence, they're at best on par with karate kids, which is why I dismiss them. The special features don't seem worth both your Wildshapes.

 

[RogueJK]

One of the things I really like about dipping 1 level of Monk with Moon Druid is that you can play it as a really flavorful "feral Druid", who doesn't use any weapons or armor. Picture a dirty, naked Halfling who was literally raised by wolves. They hurl themselves at enemies to claw and bite at them, and Wildshape into animal forms to better claw and bite the bad guys.

Focus on having a high DEX and WIS, trying to get WIS to 20 ASAP and then eventually DEX. You'll also want a moderate CON, for times when you're not using Wildshape, or you get knocked out of Wildshape in the midst of combat.

You'll spend most combats Wildshaped, but even when in your normal form, you're still able to do two unarmed strikes per round for 1d4+DEX. Plus you will have a higher AC thanks to DEX+WIS, even without any weapons or armor. (A Druid/Monk's unarmored AC maxes out at AC 20, higher than a normal Druid using Hide Armor and Shield, which maxes out at AC 16.) When ranged attacks are needed, you can use a cantrip like Produce Flame, which also acts as a handy source of light since Halflings don't have Darkvision. As you gain levels and your 2x 1d4+DEX unarmed strikes are starting to get outclassed, you can switch to using the Primal Savagery cantrip for scaling d10 magic claw attacks. (Past Level 10, Primal Savagery's single attack doing 3d10 and later 4d10 will outdamage two attacks doing 1d4+DEX each, plus Primal Savagery can hit enemies who are resistant or immune to your unarmed strike's non-magical bludgeoning damage.)

And when you Wildshape, you will have a higher AC than normal due to using the animal's DEX + your WIS to calculate AC instead of the animal's Natural Armor + animal's DEX. Nearly all Wildshape forms have only +1/+2/+3 Natural Armor, whereas your Monk/Druid will have +3/+4/+5 WIS modifier, so AC will generally be a few points higher than usual. (Although there are a couple exceptions where you'll want to stick to the creature's higher Natural Armor, like Earth Elementals.) And you can utilize the Martial Arts bonus attack with most forms, though there's some competition for your Bonus Action between the Martial Arts bonus attacks and the bonus actions needed to control various spells designed to be running while Wildshaped, like Moonbeam, Healing Spirit, or Flaming Sphere.

That's a whole lot of benefit from just 1 level of Monk. Well worth delaying your Moon Druid's progression by 1 level, IMO. However, the benefits of dipping Monk drop off dramatically past 1 level.

 

[RogueJK]

Female Steeder: A great Dexterity score and a great attack combine to make a great choice. It also has good mobility.

Steeders are Monstrosities, not Beasts. Therefore they're not eligible for Wildshape. (They were originally published as Beasts in Out of the Abyss, but that was corrected to Monstrosities in Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes.)

Giant Toad: The problem with the Giant Toad is that swallow is an action, and if you grapple something you can't use your strong attack. Otherwise this would be a solid choice.

Giant Toad's aren't a Wildshape Option until Level 4, since they have a swim speed.

 

[Yunru]

Giant Toad's aren't a Wildshape Option until Level 4, since they have a swim speed.

Thanks for catching that!

Steeders are Monstrosities, not Beasts. Therefore they're not eligible for Wildshape. (They were originally published as Beasts in Out of the Abyss, but that was corrected to Monstrosities in Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes.)

One isn't an errata for the other, so Steeders exist as both Monstrosities and Beasts. As such, I'll continue to list it for those who run into beast Steeders.

I wish WotC stopped messing up the good product they made, but alas, they decide that both stat blocks are official.

 

[Blue]

Thanks for explaining all of that, it makes sense.

There is one point I'm still not sure about:

Edit: As for elemental forms, in terms of offense and defence, they're at best on par with karate kids, which is why I dismiss them. The special features don't seem worth both your Wildshapes.

I'm not sure I see this. At character level 10, a straight druid has elemental wildshape if they need it. At character level 10, what does a karate kid have to emulate?

monk 5/druid 5 would have extra attack, but on a CR 2 creature. unarmed would be lower then the elemental wildshape damages. depending on the elemental wildshape vs. wildshape forms which has better movement when you include the monk bonus. An earth elemental has better AC then unarmed defense will give you as well as all those HPs.

As for using two wildshapes, I'll give you two scenarios that both equal that out. First is a tough battle where you'll run out of HPs of the first form and need to use the another. The other is that a druid 5 will be able to maintain a wildshape for only 2 hours, while a druid 10 will be able to maintain a wildshape for 5 hours - likely that if not brought to zero that it can likely last through what would cover two shorter uses, and likely until a short rest.

 

[Yunru]

Thanks for explaining all of that, it makes sense.

There is one point I'm still not sure about:



I'm not sure I see this. At character level 10, a straight druid has elemental wildshape if they need it. At character level 10, what does a karate kid have to emulate?

monk 5/druid 5 would have extra attack, but on a CR 2 creature. unarmed would be lower then the elemental wildshape damages. depending on the elemental wildshape vs. wildshape forms which has better movement when you include the monk bonus. An earth elemental has better AC then unarmed defense will give you as well as all those HPs.

As for using two wildshapes, I'll give you two scenarios that both equal that out. First is a tough battle where you'll run out of HPs of the first form and need to use the another. The other is that a druid 5 will be able to maintain a wildshape for only 2 hours, while a druid 10 will be able to maintain a wildshape for 5 hours - likely that if not brought to zero that it can likely last through what would cover two shorter uses, and likely until a short rest.

Everything's evaulated with regards to being multiclassed already, so when I talk about Elementals I'm comparing a Monk 1(-5)/Druid 10's beast form to their elemental.

That said, a Monk 5/Druid 5 is probably worse off than a Druid 10, although how much of that is the druid not getting CR2 forms I'm unsure of.

 

[Mistwell]

"An attack with a natural weapon is not an unarmed strike. An unarmed strike follows the unarmed strike rules in the Player's Handbook, no matter what type of creature is attacking. Some exceptional natural weapons, such as tabaxi claws, can be used for unarmed strikes." -Crawford on Twitter

 

[Todd Roybark]