D&D (2024) Fixing General Feats

[Micah Sweet]

Okay, so here is what problem I have with General Feats in...whatever we call this edition now, 5.24? 5.5? ODD, sort for One D&D? Nevermind. Here is my problem:

Every class except Fighter and Rogue gets the same number of Feats it did Ability Score improvements with class levels in 2014 5e (as ASI is now a feat). This means that if you do not multiclass, you will get 5 of those. However, the Feat you get at level 19 allows you to pick Epic Boon, which are simply stronger than other feats. Meaning you are left with 4 Feat slots to take over the course of your adventuring career, that will be either ASIS or another General Feat.

however, in order for your character to stay good at what they do and keep up with increasingly stronger enemies, they need to invest in ASIs relevant to their own class abilities. You are, if you use point-buy and minmax, likely to begin the game either with three 16s or 17, 16 and 15 in three Ability Scores - that is assuming you won't sacrifice power for roleplaying flavor and invest in less relevant ability score. And that means some classes have it easier than others. Sorcerer, Warlock and Wizard can get by by increasing just their casting ability, meaning they will have two feat slots to actually invest in interesting and cool abilities. However, Barbarian, Monk, Ranger and Paladin usually have two key ability scores - STR and CON for Barbarian, DEX and WIS for Monk and Ranger or STR and CHA for Paladin - to invest in. Which means for the majority of the game they will not be able to get any cool and interesting feat if they want to keep up, only going by origin feat and hoping to get Epic Boon. This will especilly hurt Monk and Ranger, two worst classes in the game. Bards, Clerics and Druids are swing classes here - whenever they rely in one or two Ability Scores depends on the build or subclass. Usually Bard wants jsut good Charisma and Cleric & Druid want good Wisdom, but certain builds or subclasses may want to invest in more (INT for Lore Bard, CON for Moon Druid now they don't get temporary hit points, STR or CON for War Cleric etc). Character who does have a 17 in their key abilities can round it up to 18 with a Single Feat.

And this is all assuming you will be a minmaxer and stay in a single class. Barbarian, Monk and Paladin now actually want to stay in a single class because of their capstone abilities, but they could potentially multiclass with Fighter for more feats. However, in many cases I believe this will deter the players from multiclassing - a good chunk of multiclassing builds would require you to sacrifice feats/ASIs. Unless you are careful to have right number of class levels and do also not get a feat by the time you'd qualify for an epic boon (why would you want to avoid an Epic Boon is beyond me), you will probably end with 4 feats, which may all go into your ASIs. I do beleive this is on purpose, a psychological trick to keep players who like "big number go brrr" from multiclassing. Doesn't mean I like it.

And all of it assumes player won't just invest in Constitution, which is everyone's favorite Ability Score.

This was not as much of an issue in 2014 version, where usually you'd pick feat you wanted at first level, and were much more free to juggle feats and ASIs without Epic Boon eating one slot.

I am considering few ways to fix this problem:

1. Whenever a character gains a redundant class feature, as in, one identical to what they already got from another source (eg. Fighter 5/Barbarian 5 with Extra Attack, Monk 7/Rogue 7 with Evasion), thye instead gain a free General Feat.
2. Barbarian, Monk, Ranger and Paladin have now a small list of favored feats, gaining additional +1 to one of their key Ability Scores if they select it. Such feat can either be Origin Feat (granting you +1 at beginning of the game) or General Feat (turning their +1 into +2 or two +1s).
3. Everyone, except Fighter and Rogue once at level 10, do not get to pick up General Feats other than ASI. Each General Feat now however has a prequisite of an accomplishments you can perform in-game to be granted them. You do not need to sacrifice ASI for it, and you get them automatically once you fufill the requirements. It could be things like "Athlete: Roll Critical Success on 10 Athletics or Acrobatics checks" or "Crossbow Expert: spend at least 30 days and 1000 gp on crossbow training under a master maksman and pass their final test". This way feats actually become feats, accomplishments you can brag about and their abilities reinforce reputation you have gained.

I don't really see any of this as a problem (though I understand DMs that do). We roll our stats, the game doesn't require you max any ability score to "keep up" with stronger monsters, and feats are cooler than ASIs (which I kind of hate) any day of the week IMO.

And for the record, these concerns are universal across just about any version of 5e.

 

[Horwath]

if you are worried about someone min maxing and not min maxing here is a variant.

Keep ability modifiers only for Ability CHECKS.
anywhere else where you need to add ability modifier add proficiency bonus instead.
That is for AC, DC, attacks, damage, spells, number of ability usages, etc...

Abilities are now for skills and tools only.

AC: base; 10+prof bonus
light: +1 AC or +2 AC(stealth penalty)
medium: +2 AC or +3 AC(stealth penalty)
heavy: +3 AC or +4 AC(stealth penalty)
shield: +2 AC

HPs: +2 per level, delete CON

now everyone can have any combo of ability scores to describe their character.

 

[Xeviat]

if you are worried about someone min maxing and not min maxing here is a variant.

Keep ability modifiers only for Ability CHECKS.
anywhere else where you need to add ability modifier add proficiency bonus instead.
That is for AC, DC, attacks, damage, spells, number of ability usages, etc...

Abilities are now for skills and tools only.

AC: base; 10+prof bonus
light: +1 AC or +2 AC(stealth penalty)
medium: +2 AC or +3 AC(stealth penalty)
heavy: +3 AC or +4 AC(stealth penalty)
shield: +2 AC

HPs: +2 per level, delete CON

now everyone can have any combo of ability scores to describe their character.

I've been considering divorcing ability scores from offenses (attack, damage, and DCs) and just having offenses scale with level. Then have feats be tied to ability score prerequisites, so a strong fighter gets access to different feats than a dex fighter or an int fighter.

 

[Pauln6]

I've never played a character with a maxed stat. Bounded accuracy means that, while there will always be some monsters who are harder to fight than others, you don't NEED to max out your stats. I actually find a group of min max characters to be more cliche and often terrible at social encounters. A mixed group is better value IMO.

 

[Horwath]

I've been considering divorcing ability scores from offenses (attack, damage, and DCs) and just having offenses scale with level. Then have feats be tied to ability score prerequisites, so a strong fighter gets access to different feats than a dex fighter or an int fighter.

with deleting CON and the 13 that goes with it, you can have 13 in two abilities and 12 in three with point buy. that is enough to spread around and be decent in all and have feat requirements.

 

[ECMO3]

I kind of disagree with the entire premise. I play in several games with optimizers and have done my fair bit of optimizing myself.

To start with many games roll abilities and some others use standard array. Even on point buy games I have very rarely seen the 3-16s and 3-8s. Usually on PB you will see 16-17 or two 16s on the two main stats and then the rest of the points split between 2 or 3 scores.

Also martials don't really need to push their main score. A lot of Rogues, Monks, Paladins and Fighters go to level 20 with a 16 in dexterity or strength. Spellcasters do need to put more into their spellcasting stat generally, but it is pretty common to start with a 17 and get 3 half feats to push it to 20 at level 12 instead of level 8. In that respect Warcaster being a half feat now is pretty great for casters.

Finally, Constitution is way overvalued by the community in general (including many players at my tables, most of the optimization guides and even the new PHB). There are a lot of people who won't play without a 16 Constitution and I am rarely playing with more than a 12 on Point buy. If you accept that yes you can play an awesome Fighter or Wizard or Ranger with a 10 or 12 Constitution all the way to 20th level and be perfectly fine, then you have a lot more points available for other stats.

 

[Distracted DM]

This is not true with 5e. We have played with no ASI (feats only) since 2015 and this was before every general feat included a +1 to an ability score. You can play 5e perfectly well with just your starting ability scores.

Are you using the new 5.5 stuff, how are you handling the feats n ASIs with the new rules?

It never occurred to me to house-rule out ASIs and only allow feats... My players always blitz towards 20 in their primary stat and feel kind of OP as a consequence, especially in A5E. Interesting that y'all played with starting Ability Scores and didn't have an issue.

Unfortunately it's tough to de-power players' characters, whether existing or options going forward the reception is not always a welcoming one!

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

Look, I'm an optimizer. You don't need your primary + secondary to both be at 20. And just your main stat will get there while picking up the fun feats.

Pointbuy / standard array starts you off with 17 in your power stat, so you will have it maxed at lv12 while picking the +1 feats. If that's too long, then Fighter 8 / Rogue 10 gets you there sooner. Or, if you know the campaign ends at lv10 or there aren't three feats that would raise your power stat, you can do a combo where you pick a +1 feat at lv4 and then +2 at lv8.

And stuff like Great Weapon Master / Polearm Master / Warcaster / etc can be so build-defining, that there is no benefit in skipping past those to go for +2s instead. I'd rather be at main stat 16 with PAM than at 20 without.

That said, if it really is that important to someone, many classes can wiggle around and turn their secondary into the primary stat (through shillelagh, true strike, Warlock1 etc).

 

[MonsterEnvy]

I feel like the OP has forgotten that General Feats come with Ability Score increases.

Also has not noticed you don’t need a 20 in all your scores to keep up.

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

1. Everyone, except Fighter and Rogue once at level 10, do not get to pick up General Feats other than ASI. Each General Feat now however has a prequisite of an accomplishments you can perform in-game to be granted them. You do not need to sacrifice ASI for it, and you get them automatically once you fufill the requirements. It could be things like "Athlete: Roll Critical Success on 10 Athletics or Acrobatics checks" or "Crossbow Expert: spend at least 30 days and 1000 gp on crossbow training under a master maksman and pass their final test". This way feats actually become feats, accomplishments you can brag about and their abilities reinforce reputation you have gained.

I do like this, though.

You'd just have to be really careful to not create perverse incentives. 'No don't stabilize me yet, I just need to fail one more death save to get Tough!', or combat starting and everyone trying to climb a tree for those Athletics checks.