Sage Advice Compendium Update 1/30/2019

[Asgorath]

@Asgorath, neither of your quoted passages refer to actions in combat as game-features. However, I find this semantics debate to be somewhat ridiculous. If you want to think that the game-feature that grants you the ability to use a bonus action to shove a creature is the Attack action, when nothing in the Attack action says anything about that, then feel free to do so.

Fair enough, I'll just stop discussing this with you. I think it's pretty ridiculous that you're claiming foundational rules of the game aren't "features" because that word is specifically used in discussion what grants you a bonus action, and therefore you can shove any time you like with Shield Master. As I've said many times, the game basically tells you to change the rules if you don't like them, and to do what's best for your table. If you want Shield Master to mean you can shove any time you like, then just house rule it that way. You don't need to bend the meaning of the words in the PHB to extract the outcome you want, just ignore that part of the rules and move on.

 

[Ovinomancer]

If you haven't not gained it yet, how can you be denied the ability to use it? In practice though, you just shove the creature and worry about the action economy later. You don’t know if you can use a bonus action yet, so you’ll just have to wait and see.

I see how you're doing this, and that's great, I'm glad it works for you, but it's not how the rules read. You don't get to "you haven't not gained it yet" when you can't get a bonus action until given one. That's not how the rules work, although I see no serious issue to you ruling that way for your table.

The condition is that you take the Attack action on your turn, so later, on your turn, when you do, you’ll be able to use a bonus action, which you can choose to take at any time during your turn because its timing isn’t specified by the feat. Therefore, you can apply it to the shove attempt you made.

No, because you're then skipping to the end to check the condition to apply the result to the beginning. Not how conditionals work. If X, Y requires X to be true either before or at the same time as Y, not that Y can exist so long as X eventually does.

I understand how your interpretation works. But even this sentence you've written can be interpreted to mean you can buy the book first as long as you end up getting the money later. Maybe there's a certain amount of cash that needs to be kept on hand for some other purpose, so the cost of the book will need to be replaced.

Possibly, except we have another rule, the one that says you do not have a bonus action until given one. In that case, you cannot go to the bookstore (bonus action) because the bookstore doesn't exist until you take money out of the ATM. Okay, that example got weird, but still, that's how it works.

I'm not suggesting you use a bonus action to shove a creature without also taking the Attack action on your turn.

You cannot take a bonus action to shove until you've taken the Attack action on your turn. If X, Y means X cannot be a future event if Y occurs, it must be a current event.

I'm not sure what you mean by "time-travel". I'm certainly not advocating for either players or characters to travel through time. If all you did on your turn was to shove a creature, then you took the Attack action when you did so. In the case of Shield Master, "taking the Attack action" doesn't correspond to anything in the fiction different from "taking a bonus action" as long as at least one of your attacks is a shove.

The fact your interpretation jumps to the end of the turn to check if the Attack action has occurred and then goes back to earlier to allow the bonus action prior to the Attack action. Since you've been clear that declaration isn't how you do this, then you have to be allowing a end-of-turn check to justify the bonus action.

It isn't just Shield Master. It's the way many bonus actions were designed. I actually think it was quite ingenious that they attached the Shield Master shove to the Attack action because a shove is a melee attack, so it's potentially very flexible, given the right interpretation. Where they ran into trouble, however, is with the eldritch knight's War Magic feature because a weapon attack isn't part of the Cast a Spell action, which is from where Jeremy Crawford's revised ruling comes.

Did I miss something? What trouble did War Magic run into?

"Various class features, spells, and other abilities let you take an additional action on your turn called a bonus action. The Cunning Action feature, for example, allows a rogue to take a bonus action. You can take a bonus action only when a special ability, spell, or other feature of the game states that you can do something as a bonus action. You otherwise don't have a bonus action to take."

Many in this thread have referred to this passage as if it says, "You can take a bonus action only when you've met any conditions for doing something as a bonus action laid out by a special ability, spell, or other feature of the game." They've used this to support the claim that taking the Attack action is what allows you to take the Shield Master shove as a bonus action. I just want to clearly state that the Attack action is not a class feature, spell, special ability, or other feature or ability of the game, and that the game-feature that allows you to shove a creature as a bonus action is the Shield Master feat itself.

Edit to add: My paraphrase of the above cited rules-text in terms of the Shield Master feat would be, "You can take the Shield Master shove only when you have the Shield Master feat."

Okay, this is a pretty clear version of your reading, but it runs into a few problems. One, the Attack action does NOT grant the Shield Master shove, so whether or not it's a game feature is completely irrelevant. The conditional is built into the Shield Master feat, which is a class (or racial, for variant humans) feature. That conditional says that you only get the bonus action if you take that Attack action on your turn. So, you paraphrase is eliding very important information -- namely the conditional nature of the bonus action. You can't delete information and claim to be reading RAW, or RAI, for that matter. This entire tangent doesn't advance your case.

 

[Hriston]

Fair enough, I'll just stop discussing this with you. I think it's pretty ridiculous that you're claiming foundational rules of the game aren't "features" because that word is specifically used in discussion what grants you a bonus action, and therefore you can shove any time you like with Shield Master.

That’s a blatant mischaracterization of my position, which is that the other/special ability or other feature of the game that lets you take the Shield Master shove is the Shield Master feat and not, as some have implied, taking the Attack action. You can use a bonus action to shove a creature within 5 feet when Shield Master says you can, which is on any turn in which you also take the Attack action.

As I've said many times, the game basically tells you to change the rules if you don't like them, and to do what's best for your table. If you want Shield Master to mean you can shove any time you like, then just house rule it that way. You don't need to bend the meaning of the words in the PHB to extract the outcome you want, just ignore that part of the rules and move on.

I have nothing against making house-rules and have done so in my games when I’ve wanted to change a rule. But as I’ve said many times now in this conversation, this isn’t a situation where I need to change anything. You just don’t seem to be able to imagine that someone would have a different interpretation of this rule than you do.

 

[Ovinomancer]

That’s a blatant mischaracterization of my position, which is that the other/special ability or other feature of the game that lets you take the Shield Master shove is the Shield Master feat and not, as some have implied, taking the Attack action. You can use a bonus action to shove a creature within 5 feet when Shield Master says you can, which is on any turn in which you also take the Attack action.

I don't think anyone has said you get the bonus action shove because of the Attack action. That's... odd. You get the bonus action shove from the Shield Master feat, which conditions that bonus action on the Attack action. The Attack action isn't doing the granting work, the feat is, but the Attack action is the condition specified by the feat before granting the bonus action.

I have nothing against making house-rules and have done so in my games when I’ve wanted to change a rule. But as I’ve said many times now in this conversation, this isn’t a situation where I need to change anything. You just don’t seem to be able to imagine that someone would have a different interpretation of this rule than you do.

Well, I certainly can, but I can't justify your interpretation with the rules because it allows for future state conditions to be considered true or that the action economy on a turn doesn't work as the book explains it (discrete steps) but instead as an amorphous blob that can only be disentangled into discrete components once it's completed. The former breaks understanding of how conditionals work in general, much less the rules, and the latter isn't indicated at all and is, instead, counter-indicated by thee many references to before and after for many rule components for actions in combat.

I see that you want to read 'take the attack action on your turn' as a holistic statement that treats turns as zen koans, being both comprised of individual parts but also indivisible and able to be considered as a whole. But conditionals don't work like that, and the rule clearly show choosing what you do as ordered events. Your own example of a bonus action with timing says that you accept there is a possible 'after the attack action' portion of a turn for which that ability, monk's flurry of blows, operates off of, but you revert back to Attack actions only being discoverable at the end of the turn for Shield Master. You can't have it both ways, either the Attack action is at a point in your turn, and flurry of blows operates immediately after it, or it is not a point but something you assign after the turn is done to actions performed during the turn, in which can your example fails despite the fact that this is how your work Shield Master.

And, I get you're applying the maxim of player declares, GM assigns mechanics, but that doesn't alleviate the need to assign mechanics according to the rules -- ie, this line of argument is orthogonal to the issue of timing of feats because, accepted as 100% true, it doesn't change how the rules work. If you let the players have control over combat actions, it has to work the same was as the GM using those rules in response to player declarations.

 

[FrogReaver]

That’s a blatant mischaracterization of my position, which is that the other/special ability or other feature of the game that lets you take the Shield Master shove is the Shield Master feat and not, as some have implied, taking the Attack action. You can use a bonus action to shove a creature within 5 feet when Shield Master says you can, which is on any turn in which you also take the Attack action.



I have nothing against making house-rules and have done so in my games when I’ve wanted to change a rule. But as I’ve said many times now in this conversation, this isn’t a situation where I need to change anything. You just don’t seem to be able to imagine that someone would have a different interpretation of this rule than you do.

The dude cited you the rule that all but connected the dots for you and you just dug in your position further. If you had an open mind his quote would have been persuasive.

 

[Maxperson]

"On your turn, you can move a distance up to your speed and take one action. You decide whether to move first or take your action first."

I'm not sure what the point of showing me that rule was. I stated the rules don't allow you to defer the determination of what your action is. Showing me a rule that says you can move before or after the action as determined at the time you take it isn't even remotely close.

 

[DND_Reborn]

#1 If you haven't not gained it yet, how can you be denied the ability to use it? In practice though, you just shove the creature and worry about the action economy later. You don’t know if you can use a bonus action yet, so you’ll just have to wait and see.

#2The condition is that you take the Attack action on your turn, so later, on your turn, when you do, you’ll be able to use a bonus action, which you can choose to take at any time during your turn because its timing isn’t specified by the feat. Therefore, you can apply it to the shove attempt you made.

#3I understand how your interpretation works. But even this sentence you've written can be interpreted to mean you can buy the book first as long as you end up getting the money later. Maybe there's a certain amount of cash that needs to be kept on hand for some other purpose, so the cost of the book will need to be replaced.

#4I'm not suggesting you use a bonus action to shove a creature without also taking the Attack action on your turn.

#5I'm not sure what you mean by "time-travel". I'm certainly not advocating for either players or characters to travel through time. If all you did on your turn was to shove a creature, then you took the Attack action when you did so. In the case of Shield Master, "taking the Attack action" doesn't correspond to anything in the fiction different from "taking a bonus action" as long as at least one of your attacks is a shove.

#6Personally, I don't like it, but I'd still play with a DM who made such a ruling even though I think it's a bit misguided. It's a valid interpretation of the rules-text

#7I think you're saying if you have Extra Attack, you can shove a creature with your first attack then get two more attacks (possibly with advantage) using TWF. Without Extra Attack, I don't think shoving a creature counts as making an attack with a light weapon, but I suppose that's up for debate.

#8It isn't just Shield Master. It's the way many bonus actions were designed. I actually think it was quite ingenious that they attached the Shield Master shove to the Attack action because a shove is a melee attack, so it's potentially very flexible, given the right interpretation. Where they ran into trouble, however, is with the eldritch knight's War Magic feature because a weapon attack isn't part of the Cast a Spell action, which is from where Jeremy Crawford's revised ruling comes.

Sorry for the late reply today (busy) and I know others have brought up some points, but I don't have time to digest it all before I hit the sack. So, please forgive any redundancies. I've also added the numbering to address your points.

#1. You are denied the ability to use it because you have not satisfied the requirements to gain the Bonus action feature. If you argue you can take the Shove first and not worry because you'll have to wait and see, think about what you are doing. What if you use your Bonus action to shove, and then are denied your Action afterwards and cannot take the Attack action? Does the Shove have to be unresolved now because you certainly didn't take the Attack action on your turn! Here is a perfect scenario where this could happen.

You are badly injured and have only 5 hit points remaining. You are fighting two foes and decide to use your Bonus Action to shove one and your Attack action on him with advantage. However, you use your Bonus action and succeed, the opponent is knocked prone! Wait! Unknown to you, the other foe has the Sentinel Feat! Since you Shoved, which is a special attack but an attack nonetheless, he uses his reaction to make a melee weapon attack against you! He hits! A crit! You take 10 damage and fall unconscious. However, the universe is askew, how can this be? Don't you have to take the Attack action on your turn since you used the Bonus action granted by Shield Master to Shove earlier?

This is why your reasoning falls apart IMO. You cannot benefit from a conditional feature before you satisfy the condition to gain it. In the scenario you Shoved before you took the Attack action and were unable to take the Attack action, therefore you never should have been able to Shove.

#2. This of course ties into the next point. As you say, "...so later, on your turn, when you do [take the Attack action], you'll be able to use a bonus action, ..." Notice what you wrote: "you'll be able" as in "you will be able", will, as in future tense, which follows you writing "so later, on your turn". You have just written that later you will be able to use a bonus action. Later, as in after the Attack action has been made.

#3. You have no other cash, this is why you must go to the ATM to get cash in order to buy the book.

#4. But you are, inadvertently, when you use a bonus action to Shove before taking the Attack action. The scenario I pointed out in response to #1 shows how this could happen.

#5. I meant time-travel because of the paradox potentially created and demonstrated in the scenario for #1. I do notice, however, you seem to think: "If all you did on your turn was to shove a creature, then you took the Attack action when you did so. In the case of Shield Master, "taking the Attack action" doesn't correspond to anything in the fiction different from "taking a bonus action" as long as at least one of your attacks is a shove." Shoving a creature, in and of itself, does not constitute taking the Attack action. Your statement seems to reflect (correct me if I am mistaken) that by using the Bonus action to Shove, you in fact took the Attack action when you did so? If that is your reasoning, IMO your logic is flawed because taking a bonus action is not the same thing as taking the Attack action, even if both actions are used to resolve a Shove. The first is a bonus action where you are permitted to try to shove a creature, while an Attack action can be used to shove or make other forms of attacks.

#6. Well, I am glad we seem to agree that even in our disagreements we could still play a game together. As I have stated in other posts, I prefer the idea that the Shield Master feat would confer a Bonus action without the Attack action having to precede it, but unfortunately for us that is not the official ruling as I understand it. I hope my DM will house-rule it the other way, but I'll continue to play in his game as well, even if he doesn't. Since you agree it is a valid interpretation, I won't try to persuade you otherwise except to finish this post unless you wish to continue?

#7. You are correct in both points here. I am saying, if you have Extra Attack and TWF, you could use the Attack action and your first attack to Shove, knocking your opponent prone. At which point you still have your second attack via Extra Attack AND your bonus action granting you another attack via TWF. Both of these attack would be made with advantage. Without Extra Attack, shoving a creature WOULD NOT constitute making an attack with a Light melee weapon, so you would not gain the bonus action attack from TWF. To me there is no debate on this because shoving a creature is not a melee weapon attack at all and I would have to dig, but I remember reading that either in one of the core books or maybe SA.

#8. This seems to return to #5 in that your wording indicates you understand that the bonus action Shove from Shield Master counts as its own satisfying condition because it is a melee attack. In the X,Y logic, that would be like arguing this: "If X, then Y" becomes "Since Y, then Y." You are trying to equate Y to X, but they are not the same (again, see #5 above).

Maybe that clears things up or not? If you are stuck in your own understanding, I don't know if anything more I have to say can convince you otherwise. I think the scenario in #1 shows it best how you must first take the Attack action before you can Shove (at least as the official ruling is concerned). I agree I like it better the other way since it adds an offensive element to Shield Master without having to rely on allies to benefit instead of you. But, I am not JC and I don't make the rules, I can only encourage my DM to house-rule otherwise.

 

[Arial Black]

However, you still cannot Shove until you complete the Extra attack because IT is part of the Attack action. With the exception of movement, which expressly is allowed between attacks, you must complete one action before you can begin another

Others have repeated this since your post.

And, like you, they have no rules support for this.

There is no rule in the PHB which says that "you must complete one action before you can begin another". If there is, please quote it.

Yet there is a written rule that you can take your bonus action whenever you want during your turn.

So that just leaves the issue of whether or not you actually have the bonus action shield shove between or before the attacks allowed by taking the Attack action.

The existence of that bonus action is conditional, not the condition of, "when you complete your Attack action", but on the condition of, "If you take the Attack action".

Since the replies from the other side of the debate regarding sanctuary have indeed revealed that 'taking the Attack action' does come before that first attack, then there exists a time after 'taking the Attack action' but before executing, or attempting to execute, your first attack.

Which makes sense re: cause and effect. In the physical laws of our universe-and we have no evidence of any other universe where it would be otherwise-cause must come before effect. Therefore, if 'taking the Attack action' is the cause, and 'bonus action shield shove' is the effect, then one is before the other; i.e. they are not simultaneous.

The upshot of this is that as soon as you 'take the Attack action', which we know is before your first actual attack, you have 'caused' the bonus action shield shove, and now that you have it you can use it whenever you want in your turn.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Others have repeated this since your post.

And, like you, they have no rules support for this.

There is no rule in the PHB which says that "you must complete one action before you can begin another". If there is, please quote it.

Yet there is a written rule that you can take your bonus action whenever you want during your turn.

So that just leaves the issue of whether or not you actually have the bonus action shield shove between or before the attacks allowed by taking the Attack action.

The existence of that bonus action is conditional, not the condition of, "when you complete your Attack action", but on the condition of, "If you take the Attack action".

Since the replies from the other side of the debate regarding sanctuary have indeed revealed that 'taking the Attack action' does come before that first attack, then there exists a time after 'taking the Attack action' but before executing, or attempting to execute, your first attack.

Which makes sense re: cause and effect. In the physical laws of our universe-and we have no evidence of any other universe where it would be otherwise-cause must come before effect. Therefore, if 'taking the Attack action' is the cause, and 'bonus action shield shove' is the effect, then one is before the other; i.e. they are not simultaneous.

The upshot of this is that as soon as you 'take the Attack action', which we know is before your first actual attack, you have 'caused' the bonus action shield shove, and now that you have it you can use it whenever you want in your turn.

Of course theres no rule, the question doesn't make sense.

When you take an action, you do what it says. Why waste space listing all the things you can't do when clearly stating what you actually do?

On your turn, you may move and take an action. Actions are self contained and self explanatory. If you have a bonus action, you can take it any time on your turn. Not in the middle of actions because there is no middle of actions. You're introducing rules concepts like duration or splitting of actions that have no meaning within the 5e combat rules. If you stop doing that and just read the rules without bringing baggage, it lays out very simply.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Others have repeated this since your post.

And, like you, they have no rules support for this.

There is no rule in the PHB which says that "you must complete one action before you can begin another". If there is, please quote it.

Yet there is a written rule that you can take your bonus action whenever you want during your turn.

It is not in the PHB, it is a from a JC comment. As I said earlier, I am not going to waste my time finding it just to satisfy you. Instead I will simply direct you to the latest SA on the Shield Master feat:

Shield Master
[NEW] The Shield Master feat lets you shove someone as a bonus action if you take the Attack action. Can you take that bonus action before the Attack action? No. The bonus action provided by the Shield Master feat has a precondition: that you take the Attack action on your turn. Intending to take that action isn’t sufficient; you must actually take it before you can take the bonus action. During your turn, you do get to decide when to take the bonus action after you’ve taken the Attack action. This sort of if-then setup appears in many of the game’s rules. The “if” must be satisfied before the “then” comes into play.

The text "During your turn, you do get to decide when to take the bonus action after you’ve taken the Attack action." clearly indicates you can decide when to take the bonus action AFTER you've taken the Attack action. The timing has now been specified: after you've taken the Attack action. You are no longer free to take it whenever you want.

So that just leaves the issue of whether or not you actually have the bonus action shield shove between or before the attacks allowed by taking the Attack action.

The existence of that bonus action is conditional, not the condition of, "when you complete your Attack action", but on the condition of, "If you take the Attack action".

Since the replies from the other side of the debate regarding sanctuary have indeed revealed that 'taking the Attack action' does come before that first attack, then there exists a time after 'taking the Attack action' but before executing, or attempting to execute, your first attack.

You don't. How can you have taken the Attack action without Making an Attack and proceeding to the Steps to do so? To say you are taking the Attack action and then ignore what needs to follow to constitute taking the Attack action is nonsensical.

Which makes sense re: cause and effect. In the physical laws of our universe-and we have no evidence of any other universe where it would be otherwise-cause must come before effect. Therefore, if 'taking the Attack action' is the cause, and 'bonus action shield shove' is the effect, then one is before the other; i.e. they are not simultaneous.

The upshot of this is that as soon as you 'take the Attack action', which we know is before your first actual attack, you have 'caused' the bonus action shield shove, and now that you have it you can use it whenever you want in your turn.

No, cause and effect are not simultaneous. Of course they are not. No one ever said they were, did they? But to satisfy the cause of taking the attack action you must make an attack, otherwise you have not taken the Attack action. You have not taken the Attack action until you choose a target for your attack (Step 1 from Making an Attack). There is no time in-between taking the Attack action and making your attack. If you say you are taking the Attack action, then Shove before Making an Attack, you are setting yourself up for paradox as in the scenario I proposed in post #952.

What I don't understand is the point of all this at this stage. Can you simply not accept how this works? Do you feel you need to debate it to justify the fact that you want to be able to utilize the Shove bonus action before making your attacks on your turn? It is simply enough to just house-rule it. As JC states, the bonus action comes AFTER the Attack action. How can you be after the Attack action if you have not taken it. To start to take it, is not to have taken it.

For our group we'll probably just house-rule it to allow the Shove after you have made at least one attack. I'm done debating it. If you want to rule it your way feel free. If I have the time and find the JC quote, I WILL POST IT just to satisfy you and others like you. Until then have a great game!