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Sage Advice Compendium Update 1/30/2019

Asgorath

Explorer
If your attack action isn't taken until you've made both of your attacks, then how did you make the first attack without taking the attack action?

Since you made no attacks and making attacks is what makes up the attack action then you didn't take the attack action right?

Does this mean you can start the attack action without having to actually attack?

Please see any one of my dozen or more posts that talk about splitting the Attack action with movement or other legal elements (such as bonus actions with no timing requirement like Healing Word or Misty Step). If you agree to the "if and only if you X, you can Y" model, then the sum total of all your attacks must be resolved before you even have access to the Shield Master bonus action. Inserting movement in between your attacks, which is explicitly allowed by the rules, does not change that simple fact. If you don't agree with that premise, then we've beaten that horse to death already.
 

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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
So the claim is that 'taking the Attack action' literally IS the attack. Of course, this falls down as soon as you get Extra Attack, because then Attack action IS a single thing and two attacks IS two things,

So, if you 'take the Attack action' and execute the first of these attacks but not the second, have you met the condition, "If you take the Attack action on your turn...".

If the answer is 'yes', then you now have a bonus action shield shove which you can now take anywhere you want, including before your second attack.

If the answer is 'no', then you can, after you executed that first attack, use the Cast A Spell action.

Further, even if you only have one attack, is 'taking the Attack action' and executing that attack the same thing?

Sanctuary says that if you target a warded creature with an attack and fail your save against the warded creature's sanctuary spell, then you must choose a new target or lose the attack.

If you are fighting a single foe that is warded with sanctuary, and on your turn 'take the Attack action' and target the creature, then fail your save against sanctuary and lose your attack (because there are no other targets), then have you 'taken the Attack action'?

If 'taking the Attack action' literally IS the attack, and you don't take the attack, then you logically have not 'taken the Attack action'!

If you say that you have 'taken the Attack action' even if you did not make the attack, then you literally have 'taken the Attack action' before you execute the attack.

And if that is the case, then you can 'take the Attack action' and can now shield shove as a bonus action before you execute your first attack.

It's one way or the other. Either we can shield shove before the first attack, or when failing our save against sanctuary we can take the Cast A Spell action to cast fireball even though we already took the Attack action, because it turns out that 'Attack action = attack', therefore if there was no attack there can have been no Attack action.

Which is it?

To be taking the Attack action, you have to at least get to step 1 of the attack sequence on your first attack. Sanctuary stops you there, so your action is done at that point.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
Please see any one of my dozen or more posts that talk about splitting the Attack action with movement or other legal elements (such as bonus actions with no timing requirement like Healing Word or Misty Step).

None of those posts addressed the 3 questions I just asked.

If you agree to the "if and only if you X, you can Y" model, then the sum total of all your attacks must be resolved before you even have access to the Shield Master bonus action.

No. All that must take place is the attack action needs to be taken. So your conclusion doesn't necessarily follow. If you consider the attack action to only be taken after all it's attacks are made then that would follow. But then I want to know how you made your first attack without having taken the attack action.

Inserting movement in between your attacks, which is explicitly allowed by the rules, does not change that simple fact. If you don't agree with that premise, then we've beaten that horse to death already.

No one is talking about splitting your attacks with movement.
 

DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin
So you agree that the Attack Action came before the attack?

And

That you can take the attack action without ever making an attack?

Just to clarify so there won't be any confusion:

Action: Attack (PHB, p.192, paragraphs 2 & 3)
With this action, you make one melee or ranged attack. See the "Making an Attack" section for the rules that govern attacks.
Certain features, such as the Extra Attack feature of the fighter, allow you to make more than one attack with this action.


Making an Attack (PHB, p. 194)
Step 1. Choose a target. Pick a target within your attack's range: a creature, an object, or a location.
Step 2. Determine modifiers. The DM determines... (sorry, not typing the rest up)
Step 3. Resolve the attack. You make the attack roll. On a hit... (again, you can look it up)


There, now to the meat of it...

The Attack action is what allows you to make your attack, following steps 1-3.

To answer the first question: Yes, the Attack action comes before the attack (with notable exceptions due to spells, etc.)

It must since without it you cannot Make the Attack (Steps 1-3). Certain exceptions exist of course, such as Green-Flame Blade, "As part of the action used to cast this spell, you must make a melee attack with a weapon against one creature within the spell's range, otherwise the spell fails.", which allow you to make an attack without taking the Attack action, but these are specific cases and they trump the general action needed to make an attack (i.e. the Attack action). As we all know, specific beats general.

In the a case of Sanctuary: you ARE making your attack, however you might be prevented from making your attack roll (Step 3). You begin with Step 1, choosing your target. The Sanctuary spell is then handled by the DM in step 2. Excerpt taken from the Sanctuary spell: Until the spell ends, any creature who targets the warded creature with an attack or a harmful spell must first make a Wisdom saving throw. On a failed save, the creature must choose a new target or lose the attack or spell. The DM informs you that since you targeted a creature (Step 1) that is warded you must first make a Wisdom saving throw. If you fail, you must return to Step 1 and choose a new target. If you cannot choose a new target, you lose the attack as per the description of the Sanctuary spell. Step 3 is completed because your attack was resolved--you lost it, or you choose a new target and completed the steps with that target instead, resolved by making your attack roll.

If you can only make one attack (no Extra Attack yet, etc.), and fail the Wisdom saving throw, you have taken the Attack action, made your attack, and lost the opportunity to make the attack roll due to the interference of the Sanctuary spell. By failing the save, the resolution (Step 3) is that the attack is lost instead of you being allowed to make the attack roll.

To answer the second question: No, you cannot take the Attack action without making an attack.

You can, however, take the Attack action without ever making an attack ROLL. To say you are going to take the Attack action, and then never choose a target for your attack (Step 1), you are in fact, doing nothing, therefore NOT taking the Attack action. To take the Attack action demands that you follow Steps 1-3: choose target, DM determines modifiers/situation, resolve attack. By not choosing a target, you are violating Step 1 and you are not taking the Attack action. If, after the DM finishes determining what is needed in Step 2, you then choose not to resolve the attack by making the roll (if the DM determines you can), you are not taking the Attack action because you are in violation of Step 3. By not choosing a target or by not resolving a viable attack roll, you are breaking the steps needed to take the Attack action. Until the results of the attack are resolved (Step 3), i.e. a hit, a miss, a lost attack, or whatever else the DM determines constitutes resolution of the attack, you have not taking the Attack action.

Once you have completed steps 1-3 for each available attack you are granted by the Attack action (including more attacks gained through the Extra Attack feature), you have completed your Attack action. Until then, you are taking your Attack action. The official rules at this point are that until your Attack action is finished, you have not satisfied the requirements needed to gain the bonus action to Shove granted by the Shield Master feat.

I hope for the people who really do understand this, please don't be argumentative just for the sake of it. If you honestly still have confusion, I am happy to offer further explanation (at least as far as I understand it...).
 
Last edited:

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
Just to clarify so there won't be any confusion:

Action: Attack (PHB, p.192, paragraphs 2 & 3)
With this action, you make one melee or ranged attack. See the "Making an Attack" section for the rules that govern attacks.
Certain features, such as the Extra Attack feature of the fighter, allow you to make more than one attack with this action.


Making an Attack (PHB, p. 194)
Step 1. Choose a target. Pick a target within your attack's range: a creature, an object, or a location.
Step 2. Determine modifiers. The DM determines... (sorry, not typing the rest up)
Step 3. Resolve the attack. You make the attack roll. On a hit... (again, you can look it up)


There, now to the meat of it...

The Attack action is what allows you to make your attack, following steps 1-3.

To answer the first question: Yes, the Attack action comes before the attack (with notable exceptions due to spells, etc.)

It must since without it you cannot Make the Attack (Steps 1-3). Certain exceptions exist of course, such as Green-Flame Blade, "As part of the action used to cast this spell, you must make a melee attack with a weapon against one creature within the spell's range, otherwise the spell fails.", which allow you to make an attack without taking the Attack action, but these are specific cases and they trump the general action needed to make an attack (i.e. the Attack action). As we all know, specific beats general.

In the a case of Sanctuary: you ARE making your attack, however you might be prevented from making your attack roll (Step 3). You begin with Step 1, choosing your target. The Sanctuary spell is then handled by the DM in step 2. Excerpt taken from the Sanctuary spell: Until the spell ends, any creature who targets the warded creature with an attack or a harmful spell must first make a Wisdom saving throw. On a failed save, the creature must choose a new target or lose the attack or spell. The DM informs you that since you targeted a creature (Step 1) that is warded you must first make a Wisdom saving throw. If you fail, you must return to Step 1 and choose a new target. If you cannot choose a new target, you lose the attack as per the description of the Sanctuary spell. Step 3 is completed because your attack was resolved--you lost it, or you choose a new target and completed the steps with that target instead, resolved by making your attack roll.

If you can only make one attack (no Extra Attack yet, etc.), and fail the Wisdom saving throw, you have taken the Attack action, made your attack, and lost the opportunity to make the attack roll due to the interference of the Sanctuary spell. By failing the save, the resolution (Step 3) is that the attack is lost instead of you being allowed to make the attack roll.

Agreed to here.

To answer the second question: No, you cannot take the Attack action without making an attack.

You can, however, take the Attack action without ever making an attack ROLL. To say you are going to take the Attack action, and then never choose a target for your attack (Step 1), you are in fact, doing nothing, therefore NOT taking the Attack action. To take the Attack action demands that you follow Steps 1-3: choose target, DM determines modifiers/situation, resolve attack. By not choosing a target, you are violating Step 1 and you are not taking the Attack action. If, after the DM finishes determining what is needed in Step 2, you then choose not to resolve the attack by making the roll (if the DM determines you can), you are not taking the Attack action because you are in violation of Step 3. By not choosing a target or by not resolving a viable attack roll, you are breaking the steps needed to take the Attack action. Until the results of the attack are resolved (Step 3), i.e. a hit, a miss, a lost attack, or whatever else the DM determines constitutes resolution of the attack, you have not taking the Attack action.

Once you have completed steps 1-3 for each available attack you are granted by the Attack action (including more attacks gained through the Extra Attack feature), you have completed your Attack action. Until then, you are taking your Attack action. The official rules at this point are that until your Attack action is finished, you have not satisfied the requirements needed to gain the bonus action to Shove granted by the Shield Master feat.

I hope for the people who really do understand this, please don't be argumentative just for the sake of it. If you honestly still have confusion, I am happy to offer further explanation (at least as far as I understand it...).

Sanctuary states: "On a failed save, the creature must choose a new target or lose the attack". I don't see how you can say the attack was taken when the rules explicitly call it a lost attack?

You did start to make an attack. You did attempt to make an attack. However, you couldn't and you lost that attack. If you lose the attack how did you make an attack?
 

DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin
Agreed to here.



Sanctuary states: "On a failed save, the creature must choose a new target or lose the attack". I don't see how you can say the attack was taken when the rules explicitly call it a lost attack?

You did start to make an attack. You did attempt to make an attack. However, you couldn't and you lost that attack. If you lose the attack how did you make an attack?

Because the attack was resolved (Step 3), when the DM tells you that you have lost it due to the specifics of the spell. Normally, yes, resolving an attack results in either a hit or a miss, but it can also be result in a hit turned into a miss due to an effect like from the Shield spell, or a miss turned into an additional attack via Gloom Stalker's Stalker's Flurry feature, or a lost attack (from Sanctuary), etc.

At any rate, at that point in the Sanctuary example, unless you have additional attacks to make due to Extra Attack, the Attack action is finished. You could then utilize the Shove bonus action, but if you tried it on the same target, another Wisdom saving throw would be required and you run the risk of it, too, resolved as being "lost" due to Sanctuary.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
Because the attack was resolved (Step 3), when the DM tells you that you have lost it due to the specifics of the spell. Normally, yes, resolving an attack results in either a hit or a miss, but it can also be result in a hit turned into a miss due to an effect like from the Shield spell, or a miss turned into an additional attack via Gloom Stalker's Stalker's Flurry feature, or a lost attack (from Sanctuary), etc.

Sanctuary doesn't cause a miss. It causes the attack to be lost. There is a difference. Losing an attack doesn't fall under step 3 Resolving an Attack under the rules. In fact it doesn't even make it past step 1.
 

Asgorath

Explorer
Sanctuary doesn't cause a miss. It causes the attack to be lost. There is a difference. Losing an attack doesn't fall under step 3 Resolving an Attack under the rules. In fact it doesn't even make it past step 1.

Can you quote the text from the PHB that says this?
 


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