D&D 5E Using Spell Point Variant Rule?

[Blue]

Rule system only solution to the 15m adventuring day?

Replacement for the /rule part/ solution that he removed - cantrips which can be done at-will.

There is also the DM and adventure parts of avaoidign 15 minute adventuring days. He removed a mechanical fix, so I was looking for a mechanical replacement for it. Not a hand wave to put more on the DM.

**But** if for some reason I wanted to mechanically homogenize folks to a more "forced" adherence to an OTP house rule "one true pace" then I would consider this.

Calling it "One True Pace" really sounds like "this is the only way to play". I'm not for any single pace, I am for not regularly doing the shortest 1-2 encounter pace because of the balance between classes.

There is an undeniable mechanical balance factor between classes that are primary at-will, primary short-rest recharge, and primary long-rest recharge. I think you will agree that, for instance, a long rest after every encounter vs. a long rest only after ten encounters would find certain classes more powerful in those extremes. Just like a warlock in a game with no short rests will find themselves at a disadvantage vs. other casters in terms of slots per day. So there is, mechancially, a range where the three types of classes are more-or-less balanced against each other. And please, there's no "one true pace" that they should all be the same. Vary it up byt he story, vary it up with some shorter days, some longer days, some days with more short rests and some with short. Do whatever you need or want - all I'm saying is just don't always do very short days because that throws off the mechanical balance between classes.

[Good ideas about how to break up long rest recharge into short rests to encourage longer adventuring days snipped. Wanted to acknowledge and appreciate them.]

In my play experience with spell points, the biggest change was almost exclusive loss of upticking/upslotting. It's just not worth losing a spell that can be cast to power a level up. The sole exception is if the uptick is multiple targets, like invisibility or other buffs, where there is a need for multiple folks.

You're talking about the DMG variant. Shiroiken was suggesting another variant that also charged points for cantrips. Which is the primary method characters use to extend their spells. That's the safety value being removed I was talking about. He wants casters to go back to quarterstaves and such if they don't want to spend points. It would have a different feel than either core PHB or the DMG spell point variant.

 

[Shiroiken]

If you want/need a mechanical rule to prevent the 15 minute work day that doesn't require any DM input, you need a meta-game solution. I've heard of another game system (13th Age, maybe?) that only replenishes abilities after a set number of encounters, regardless of how long it takes for that to happen. Many DMs & players are not fond of this, however, since it tends to break immersion and verisimilitude. I wouldn't have minded seeing that as an option in the DMG, as well as suggestions on how the DM can time manage the game to help prevent the short adventuring day problem.

You're talking about the DMG variant. Shiroiken was suggesting another variant that also charged points for cantrips. Which is the primary method characters use to extend their spells. That's the safety value being removed I was talking about. He wants casters to go back to quarterstaves and such if they don't want to spend points. It would have a different feel than either core PHB or the DMG spell point variant.

Correct. Realistically, while I love the idea of spell points, to do it right you'd have to completely rework the way spells function. Cantrips wouldn't damage scale and would cost spell points, so they aren't a fall back after going nova. The existing DMG system doesn't do any of this, and would greatly encourage going nova, since you can just cantrip any further combats you're forced into.

 

[DND_Reborn]

We wouldn't scale cantrip damage most likely if we implement a spell point system. However, I would probably suggest allowing cantrips to include spellcasting ability modifier to damage, just as STR or DEX can add to weapon attacks.

 

[Blue]

If you want/need a mechanical rule to prevent the 15 minute work day that doesn't require any DM input, you need a meta-game solution.

This is mischaracterizing my question. We're not looking for a 100% solution -- that's a different thing. There are mechanics that help reduce 15 minute adventuring days. Having cantrips that allow a caster to contribute *meaningfully* without using a slot is one of them. Havign a large number of slots (vs. effectively reducing the number of slots by consolidating to fewer high level slots). Both of these increase the pressure for 15 minute adventuring day.

Having removed these mechanical relief valves, what mechanical relief to help reduce pressure for 15 minute adventuring days will replace them?

 

[Shiroiken]

This is mischaracterizing my question. We're not looking for a 100% solution -- that's a different thing. There are mechanics that help reduce 15 minute adventuring days. Having cantrips that allow a caster to contribute *meaningfully* without using a slot is one of them. Havign a large number of slots (vs. effectively reducing the number of slots by consolidating to fewer high level slots). Both of these increase the pressure for 15 minute adventuring day.

Having removed these mechanical relief valves, what mechanical relief to help reduce pressure for 15 minute adventuring days will replace them?

The problem is that having a relief valve encourages nova behavior, because you can nova without fear that you can still contribute meaningfully if you have to continue before resting. The existing system has this issue because of the cantrips, and using the DMG spell points with them will make the issue worse. In reality, this is an issue the DM is going to have to deal with in-game, because players will always find a way to use the mechanics in their favor.

If you want a mechanical way to prevent nova behavior using spell points, I would recommend having them refresh over time, rather than after a long rest (just as the psions points did in 2E). In addition, I'd have the refresh rate be based on the percentage remaining, so the lower you have left, the slower it recovers. This would discourage nova behavior, since they would get back fewer spell points if they go nova. This still probably won't solve the problem, because players will simply stop after going nova until they refresh sufficiently to continue.

 

[Blue]

The problem is that having a relief valve encourages nova behavior, because you can nova without fear that you can still contribute meaningfully if you have to continue before resting.

Yes, and so what? Nova-ing isn't inherently bad. As a matter of fact, it's a feature of daily resource usage vs. a more spread at-will (or somewhat spread short rest). So it looks like it is something intentional from them designers.

Let's not move the goalpost. The question is about replacing removed mechanical ways to help avoid 15 minute adventuring days.

 

[Tony Vargas]

If you want/need a mechanical rule to prevent the 15 minute work day that doesn't require any DM input, you need a meta-game solution.

Vancian, spell points, spontaneous casting - they're all metagame constructs that poorly model magic as seen in fantasy fiction(& myth, etc).

There is an undeniable mechanical balance factor between classes that are primary at-will, primary short-rest recharge, and primary long-rest recharge.

heh. The value of this factor is IM, as in imbalanced. ;P ::sigh:: not as funny as it sounded in my head.

Shiroiken was suggesting another variant that also charged points for cantrips. Which is the primary method characters use to extend their spells. That's the safety value being removed I was talking about. He wants casters to go back to quarterstaves and such if they don't want to spend points. It would have a different feel than either core PHB or the DMG spell point variant.

So to help that work you could use some sort of casting-stress system. The more spell points you spend in a short period, the greater the stress. That could be stress on the mage - exhaustion, hp damage, inability to cast for a time - or stress on reality (magical side-effects, spells going out of control).

Actually, you could use a system where you can't spend more than one spell point unless you spent a spell point in the previous round - so you have to 'warm up' to cast big spells - but also have to make concentration checks every round with a cumulative penalty based on how many spell points you've used so far...
… and have some sort of backlash when you finally fail.

If you want a mechanical way to prevent nova behavior using spell points, I would recommend having them refresh over time, rather than after a long rest. In addition, I'd have the refresh rate be based on the percentage remaining, so the lower you have left, the slower it recovers. This would discourage nova behavior, since they would get back fewer spell points if they go nova.

That actually answered the question.

 

[CapnZapp]

The spell point variant is fairly broken. It would be much more interesting had it imposed a limit on the number of points you can expend in a short while.

 

[CapnZapp]

I imagine experience is the best teacher here. After a couple times of novaing and then being less than effective when you are really needed, it seems like discretion would quickly be acquired. Also, with cantrips always available, it is no worse than when a character runs out of spell slots normally.

Yeah this presumes something that rarely is true.

Novaing is something you do against hard foes, making those encounters much less interesting and challenging.

That the other encounters, the easy ones, become slightly less easy, is not a concern.

The real conclusion here is to ask yourself why the game allows you to nova at all, at least without paying a hefty price.

 

[CapnZapp]

The problem I see with the spell point system now is that you can nova all your high level stuff, then fall back to cantrips for everything else. If cantrips also cost spell points, and you have suficient encounters, this makes full nova a less viable, since basic attacks are likely much less useful.

This.

The spell point system kind of worked (not really, but work with me here) in the context of 3rd edition.

In 5E, where you always have your four-dice firebolts or whatever, it simply doesn't work precisely for the reason S lays out above.