Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?

Except not. I know for a fact that all I'm doing is having some fun, and not even all of it has to do with you at all, and what does is just ribbing. No insults at all. If n[/MENTION] and I.

The posts are not coming across this way at all. But whatever I wasn’t particularly focused on your posts.

Look when people do things like mock a person for not reading a thread using language that belittles their reading comprehension: that is insulting.
 

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Hussar

Legend
Yeah, I'm done here. Pemerton's off using definitions that are just way out in left field and I honestly have completely lost whatever point he was trying to make. Every criticism is brushed off as a "non-sequitur" and not even remotely addressed. [MENTION=85555]Bedrockgames[/MENTION] cannot even be bothered talking about what the rest of us are talking about.

I'm rather tired of simply talking past each other. You folks have fun.
 

I responded pretty directly to the individual points you were making [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION]. Not sure how else you want me to engage the discussion.
 

pemerton

Legend
When I guide new players, I often encourage them to consider minor elements about their characters that will be fun and memorable at the table.

<snip>

These tidbits often generate great interplay between the characters, despite the fact that they may have no impact on the stakes of the story (at first anyway, see below for more on this).

<snip>

There is a fluidity between how these details may impact the "actual play of the game." Maybe when I create my dwarf, I don't imagine the beard thing will be significant. I haven't written anything about it on my character sheet. But the beard jokes gain traction at the table and I start thinking more about the cultural significance of my beard, describing the intricate braids and beads that represent various elements of my character's background. Eventually, a good GM picks up on this and may develop hooks and connections. Maybe we meet another dwarf whose "beard writing" reveals something about them. Or we end up in a scenario where my beard is threatened (or I need to be in a clean-shaven disguise). I never consciously declared to the GM that these things are central features of my character, but over time these story elements can grow and become more significant. This sort of promotion and demotion of roleplaying elements seems to be a significant component of most games that I've played, regardless of the system.
This is important.

You are right about fluidity: actual play doesn't manifest discrete types or moments of the neat types we use in analysis and criticism.

Some of what I had in mind in my post that you responded to is elaborated in my posts to [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION] just upthread.

Here's a passage from Christopher Kubasik that also captures what I had in mind:

The tales of a story entertainment are based not on the success of actions, but on the choice of actions; not the manipulation of rules, but the manipulation of narrative tools.

The primary tool is Character. Characters drive the narrative of all stories. However, many people mistake character for characterization.

Characterization is the look of a character, the description of his voice, the quirks of habit. Characterization creates the concrete detail of a character through the use of sensory detail and exposition. By “seeing” how a character looks, how he picks up his wine glass, by knowing he has a love of fine tobacco, the character becomes concrete to our imagination, even while remaining nothing more than black ink upon a white page.

But a person thus described is not a character. A character must do.

Character is action. That’s a rule of thumb for plays and movies, and is valid as well for roleplaying games and story entertainments. This means that the best way to reveal your character is not through on an esoteric monologue about pipe and tobacco delivered by your character, but through your character’s actions.

But what actions? Not every action is true to a character; it is not enough to haphazardly do things in the name of action. Instead, actions must grow from the roots of Goals. A characterization imbued with a Goal that leads to action is a character.​

Because of the fluidity that you mention, it may be that characterisation leads to goals and thereby character and protagonism. In this way it ceases to be mere colour.

With respect to interplay between the characters, my own view is that the more this is conceived of in the same sort of frame as action declaration - ie something that matters to play and is part of the way the players express their protagonism - the more we tend towards flourishing roleplaying. Consistently (I think) with your fluidity point, the colour becomes a bridge to play and action.

My thinking on this is also influenced by one particualr RPGing experience that I had. There was a lot of interplay between the characters, and among us we built up a strong sense of the gameworld, the stakes of the game, that was somewhat independent of what the GM was doing. At a certain point, the GM - I think in order to try and retake control of the game - moved us all 100 years into the future of the gameworld.

If the character stuff was mere colour then this wouldn't have mattered. But the character stuff wasn't mere colour. It was central to play. The GM's change, which severed the PCs from the gameworld and hence pulled the rug of their relationships out from under them, killed the game. I left it a few weeks after that change, and heard that it broke up completely not much later.

That's an example of the GM not recognising and respecting the protagonistic trajectory of the players' colour.
 

pemerton

Legend
Yeah, I'm done here. Pemerton's off using definitions that are just way out in left field and I honestly have completely lost whatever point he was trying to make.
The point is simple: a novel probably won't move you if it's poorly written. A letter from a family member is likely to move you regardless of how it's written.

RPGing is more like the latter than the former. It's about moving people through shared engagement with an imagined situation, not entertaining people by performing for them.
 

Imaro

Legend
But your whole notion of what constitutes color, and what constitutes good color, is completely at odds with my notion. That is the crux of the problem here. And again I just don't buy into this Content/Presentation-performance distinction people are making. It hasn't been demonstrated to be a real distinction and it hasn't been shown by anyone to be useful for anything other than this discussion.

You realize this is the OP's original distinction... right? The OP who you have continually agreed with...right?
 

pemerton

Legend
You realize this is the OP's original distinction... right? The OP who you have continually agreed with...right?
It's not my distinction, actually. I never used the word content. That's [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION]'s word.

Hussar has suggested that I am eschewing description, but here's the OP:

RPGing requires narration: GMs describe situations, and players declare actions for their PCs that respond to those situations. But I don't think the literary quality of that narration is important.

What matters to me is that the players feel the significance of the situations the GM describes - that they feel the pull to action, and the threats of inaction. That is, that the situation engage and motivate the players as players, not as an audience to a performance.

My point in this thread has been consistent: that what is distinctive about RPGing is that it engages by way of participation in situation, not performance to an audience.

I don't think it's that hard to understand, whether or not you agree with it.
 

Imaro

Legend
The point is simple: a novel probably won't move you if it's poorly written. A letter from a family member is likely to move you regardless of how it's written.

RPGing is more like the latter than the former. It's about moving people through shared engagement with an imagined situation, not entertaining people by performing for them.


Yeah but I'm also less likely to be able to fully engage with (emotionally, intellectually or however) the content of said letter if the presentation is horrible. It's the same with rpg's for many people (especially since they would lack the implied emotion connection that a family member would draw on)
 

You realize this is the OP's original distinction... right? The OP who you have continually agreed with...right?

Look at my response to the op. I agreed that RPGs are not literary. I also agreed with him that you don’t have to be in acting mode to depict a character. At every point I have disagreed with adding a new model or language around this distinction.
 

Imaro

Legend
It's not my distinction, actually. I never used the word content. That's [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION]'s word.

Hussar has suggested that I am eschewing description, but here's the OP:



My point in this thread has been consistent: that what is distinctive about RPGing is that it engages by way of participation in situation, not performance to an audience.

I don't think it's that hard to understand, whether or not you agree with it.

Well maybe it wasn't stated clearly enough... either way I disagree... some people are engaged during roleplaying games because of the performances going on plain and simple they are a player type that has been identified in Robin Laws (I believe) player types or are you saying they don't exist? I also don;t think engagement through participation in a situation is distinct... choose your own adventure books, boardgames and videogames all do this to varying degrees...
 

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