D&D 5E Proficiency vs. Ability vs. Expertise

DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin
I was doing B wins as a potential bad state if it is subjectively too high....

Sure, here is the range if B is 0 lower to 19 lower than A, with the probability that B will win (not tie, actually win).

chart.png

For example, if B was 4 points less than A, B would have a 30% chance of winning in a contested match.

What bothers me, is that someone with max proficiency and ability at +11, would lose to someone with no proficiency nor ability 9% of the time simply by random chance. I did a poll on this a while ago (here) and the average result was people seemed okay with those odds as it was higher than 9%. So, I guess it is mostly just me. :D
 
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As for the weapons table; first, the omissions: 1d12 and 2d6 piercing weapon, 1d8 finesse slashing weapon, etc. Then the handaxe, should be 1d4 damage, also, the greatclub should be heavy and 1d10 damage. The quarterstaff being versatile is stupid. The pike and trident are a mess (pointless). Oh, and the net, you always have disadvantage when attacking with it, marvellous stuff.
I'm pretty sure that they went with a commonsense approach to iconic weapons rather than a point-buy system or table-filling exercise. Some weapons are in there because monsters use them rather than because it was intended to be a balanced player choice.
For example: you have the pike as the larger piercing weapon. What weapon would you put for 1d12 or 2d6 piercing that isn't just a variant of it.
Likewise the general perception of the rapier is sort of justifiable as a d8 Finesse, but finding a slashing weapon on par with a longsword that would do the same damage whether it was Bilbo Baggins or Bruce Lee wielding it is tricky.
Have to agree about the quarterstaff though. :)

That's exactly it. There is no reason why rogues or bards should have the potential to be better at skills than the other classes. There is also no justification for them to be "skill monkeys". To me, it is a lazy way to make them stand out in an unreasonable way. Both these classes are already the only ones who begin with more than two skills for their class. As it is, with a flat expertise bonus (say +2) they still have the potential to be better, but not a full +6 better as in RAW.
The justification for the rogue to be a skill monkey is part history and part balance. The rogue has always been the mundane skill expert.
Their ability to use skills better than other classes is to make that capability reliable enough to compete with outright magical class abilities such as spellcasting.
The Rogue has the potential to get a higher result on a climb check than other classes? The Monk can run up the wall. The Wizard can cast Levitate, or Fly, or Spider Climb.
The Rogue can reliably pull off Persuasion and Insight? Wizard can cast Suggestion, Detect Thoughts etc.
A specialised Rogue has a better chance of recalling the history and effects of a magic item than a wizard does? Wizard can just cast Identify as a ritual, or even legend lore.

Skills do not run out of uses (while spells may be unlikely to as well in most adventuring days, utility spell use can detract from combat capability.)
Spells are often either automatic success and/or can do things that skills cannot.
Other classes, even ones that also get spells can use skills as well, however, which means that to make the Rogue stand out, they have to make them better at using their skills. Better to an extent that they can pull off extreme things reliably enough that the party doesn't just let the spellcaster do it.
Hence: Expertise in its current form.

Sure, making the skills they are good at useful in other ways is great. Something that would make sense for a rogue/bard but not other classes. The difficult thing is just about anything I've thought of along these lines makes just as much sense of other classes, too. :(
That bit I've bolded right there. That is the issue that you're always going to have with nonmagical classes like Rogues and Fighters being able to do cool and unique stuff. No supernatural element or other special endowment (Hur hur) means that technically, there shouldn't be anything that they can do that other classes can't:
"My wizard is a sage, just like the rogue is. Why can't he get as high on an arcana check?"
"My paladin is in combat just as much as the fighter. Why can't he get four attacks?"
. . . and so on.

You either allow the fighter and rogue to do mundane stuff like swinging weapons or sneaking around better than other classes, or you need to give them something that no-one else can do. But since they are a mundane class, there is no reason that other classes shouldn't be able to do that. . . . and so on.

Overall, consider the attack roll, ACs (IIRC), and bounded accuracy:

At Tier 1, the average opponent AC is 13 or so. Most characters will have a +4 or +5 to their attack roll, so need a 8 or 9.
At Tier 2, average opponent AC jumps to 15ish. Fine, most characters have gained a +2 or +3 to their attack roll, so still need about 8 or 9, give or take a point.
At Tier 3, AC rises to about 18, but characters keep pace via proficiency increase and ASI typically. They might need a bit more than 8 or 9, but only a point maybe in most cases.
At Tier 4, AC average is close to 21. Assuming max ability, characters are looking at +11. So, 9 or likely a 10. Not far from the 8 or 9 they needed back at level 1.
That is because 5e is specifically designed to keep attacks to have a reasonable chance of hitting at all levels, with HP being the scaling factor in tiers. Hence it scales differently to skills where the DC is the scaling factor.
Save DCs vs save bonuses along the tiers would probably be a valid comparison.

Now, look at DCs for checks. The max (in theory) is supposed to be 30 as I understand it. Which works fine and in a similar fashion to the attack roll versus ACs. At high levels, PCs have about a 50/50 chance or better to accomplish a Hard (DC 20) task. Personally, I am fine with that. I don't want Hard to become "Mundane". But...

You throw expertise as number boost and now a Hard task becomes easy. Giving bards and rogues a boost equal to proficiency at lower levels is nice and not overwhelming, but as levels increase and the skill jumps two points each time instead of one, it becomes more of an issue.
I am of the opinion that a rogue approaching epic levels who is specialised in that skill should be able to regularly pull off feats that the average peasant would probably regard as nearly impossible.
We're talking about a level where Wish spells become a factor in encounter design. Having a party member able to reliably sneak past most monsters they encounter, as long as there is cover and only mundane senses at work does not seem game-breaking, or even comparatively problematic.
 

DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin
The justification for the rogue to be a skill monkey is part history and part balance. The rogue has always been the mundane skill expert.
Their ability to use skills better than other classes is to make that capability reliable enough to compete with outright magical class abilities such as spellcasting.
The Rogue has the potential to get a higher result on a climb check than other classes? The Monk can run up the wall. The Wizard can cast Levitate, or Fly, or Spider Climb.
The Rogue can reliably pull off Persuasion and Insight? Wizard can cast Suggestion, Detect Thoughts etc.
A specialised Rogue has a better chance of recalling the history and effects of a magic item than a wizard does? Wizard can just cast Identify as a ritual, or even legend lore.

Skills do not run out of uses (while spells may be unlikely to as well in most adventuring days, utility spell use can detract from combat capability.)
Spells are often either automatic success and/or can do things that skills cannot.
Other classes, even ones that also get spells can use skills as well, however, which means that to make the Rogue stand out, they have to make them better at using their skills. Better to an extent that they can pull off extreme things reliably enough that the party doesn't just let the spellcaster do it.
Hence: Expertise in its current form.

Rogues were not skill experts before 3E. So, history has nothing to do with it. The rogue (and the fighter) are mundane classes, but even they have archetypes which blend into using spells (Arcane Trickster/ Eldritch Knight). I don't expect them to compete with spellcasting because they run out, but expertise doesn't.

I "get" the balance reasons, I just don't agree those are valid justifications for the bard/rogue and expertise to be superior in skills to all other classes (unless an archetype happens to grant expertise, just as the Domain of Knowledge for clerics). Sure, I can offer limited (once only) expertise to other classes, but then people complain about stepping on the bard/rogue's toes...

That bit I've bolded right there. That is the issue that you're always going to have with nonmagical classes like Rogues and Fighters being able to do cool and unique stuff. No supernatural element or other special endowment (Hur hur) means that technically, there shouldn't be anything that they can do that other classes can't:
"My wizard is a sage, just like the rogue is. Why can't he get as high on an arcana check?"
"My paladin is in combat just as much as the fighter. Why can't he get four attacks?"
. . . and so on.

You either allow the fighter and rogue to do mundane stuff like swinging weapons or sneaking around better than other classes, or you need to give them something that no-one else can do. But since they are a mundane class, there is no reason that other classes shouldn't be able to do that. . . . and so on.

Right. And I don't think they should be able to be better (or at least not as much, as I have stated before a one or two point difference I could probably be okay with...). I don't think fighters should get more attacks, well, or that non-fighters should get a third maybe at 15th level or something. I am fine with a fighter potentially having that 4th attack, one over a 3-attack increase for others, at level 20 because it is one way to represent their edge. Maybe other classes shouldn't get extra attack until 7th or 8th levels, even. What I do think is that fighters should have other ways to represent their ability. And they get those (maneuvers, increased critical range, etc.) to some degree, and we have house-ruled others that help in minor ways. While other battler classes develop other abilities, such as spells, faster movement, etc., the fighter excels at making their weapon deal more damage, hence we have a new fighter feature, Increased Weapon Damage (3rd level and 13th level).

That is because 5e is specifically designed to keep attacks to have a reasonable chance of hitting at all levels, with HP being the scaling factor in tiers. Hence it scales differently to skills where the DC is the scaling factor.
Save DCs vs save bonuses along the tiers would probably be a valid comparison.

Okay, so that is also done because average AC doesn't increase as much as average DC for tasks. Few monsters have AC's in the 20's, let alone the high 20's. And by then attacks are two per round or more against them. Skill DCs, though can be in the mid-20's in Tier 1 and hit 30 faster.

You mention save DCs, which align with attacks in that they are limited to +11. Most skills are limited to +11, the sole exception being expertise features. And as I stated in another post, a rogue with expertise needs about a 6 to beat the passive perceptions they are likely to encounter over the course of their career. A 6 or better isn't too hard to make (and that is without buffs, etc. and against hard/deadly level challenges).

I am of the opinion that a rogue approaching epic levels who is specialised in that skill should be able to regularly pull off feats that the average peasant would probably regard as nearly impossible.
We're talking about a level where Wish spells become a factor in encounter design. Having a party member able to reliably sneak past most monsters they encounter, as long as there is cover and only mundane senses at work does not seem game-breaking, or even comparatively problematic.

Great. So we are back to the issue I had earlier. Here I had hoped maybe you would actually want to try to offer suggestions to help instead of trying to explain why a problem doesn't exist. I explained my issues and instead of offering solutions, you told me why they shouldn't be issues. They ARE issues caused by expertise inflating skills so what should be challenging becomes routine, which is boring.

I am going back to the drawing board and continue to create other features that will enhance fighters and rogues in ways that make sense, keep the game fun and offer more options, etc. Let me know if you come up with something along those lines.
 

5ekyu

Hero
IMO

The way I think.

If I had a problem such as "I dont like that the designers made the`5e rogue and bard skill expert types at all"
Thrn my path towards happiness would not even start at the nuts and bolts snd numbers of expertise vs proficiency cuz those are just the shadows of the symptom.

I would alter the classes to rework them to suit the non-skill-monkey vision they "should" be, or more properly "will serve in my game."

Achieving "every class can expert" needs the prodigy feat slightly tweaked to be open for anyone for their class skills only *or* for the race skills maybe as well.

Trying to "fix" a core class definition by monkeying with mechanics under the hood is not usually a good way to go about it when the issue is them having it at all.
 

Esker

Hero
What bothers me, is that someone with max proficiency and ability at +11, would lose to someone with no proficiency nor ability 9% of the time simply by random chance. I did a poll on this a while ago (here) and the average result was people seemed okay with those odds as it was higher than 9%. So, I guess it is mostly just me. :D

This bugs me too, but I'm a bit puzzled by the combination of two opinions you seem to hold: that high skill bonuses don't do enough, and that skill bonuses are too high...
 

Esker

Hero
Put another way, it's hard to know how to offer solutions without understanding what the problem is that we're trying to solve. If the issue is that expertise makes too many things auto-succeed, which isn't fun for the expertise player, I can get behind that, and it suggests one kind of solution. If the issue is that getting a higher bonus doesn't do enough to distinguish a character's chances of success, that's also something I can get behind, but that shows why, without an overhaul to the luck mechanic, the expertise bonus *has* to be big to create a meaningful differentiation. And finally, if the issue is that you don't think rogues and bards should be better at at-will mundane skill rolls than other classes, then I'm not particularly interested in helping, but it suggests a complete redesign of those classes, and the OP doesn't really get at the issue, so it's not surprising that you're not getting suggestions that you find suitable.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Sure, here is the range if B is 0 lower to 19 lower than A, with the probability that B will win (not tie, actually win).

View attachment 107874

For example, if B was 4 points less than A, B would have a 30% chance of winning in a contested match.

What bothers me, is that someone with max proficiency and ability at +11, would lose to someone with no proficiency nor ability 9% of the time simply by random chance. I did a poll on this a while ago (here) and the average result was people seemed okay with those odds as it was higher than 9%. So, I guess it is mostly just me. :D

I think personally it bothers me... a solution might be to allow player choice to have an impact... although I am not thinking my idea earlier of smaller dice actually do the trick well enough but allowing the player to chose to sacrifice extremes in favor of increased middle values feels good in concept. Using 3d6 as a more baseline option has appeal because one keeps very near the whole range and could allow criticals easily enough. If you are confident you can win you choose smaller die that clump things closer to the middle.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
I am of the opinion that a rogue approaching epic levels who is specialised in that skill should be able to regularly pull off feats that the average peasant would probably regard as nearly impossible

* it occured to me the earlier presented idea of allowing hiding without penalty even while moving is almost a way of hiding generalised advancing skill by removing difficulties... If one gains things like that they are better visualized.

I am not sure that the higher numbers all by themselves properly evoke the "pulling off of feats" akin to the achievements of magic. Hence the earlier mention of explicit abilities idea.
Advancing numbers need interesting advancing targets uber benefits and difficulties and to me ways of exerting extra effort so that bit about can always always do it is not always a consideration. Such skill bursts might use something like superiority die - ie those maneuvers are a form of skill burst...ooh look someone asked what combat expertise looked like.
 
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Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
I did a poll on this a while ago (here) and the average result was people seemed okay with those odds as it was higher than 9%. So, I guess it is mostly just me. :D

Your poll lacked a more definite description of the participants and the no chance option should not be collapsed in with 5 percentiles

The completely unskilled lowest attribute individual cannot outperform the ultimate practitioner often enough to be worth modelling.
 

DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin
This bugs me too, but I'm a bit puzzled by the combination of two opinions you seem to hold: that high skill bonuses don't do enough, and that skill bonuses are too high...

Sorry for any confusion. Skill bonuses alone are fine (proficiency and ability), even with the +8/+4 split I prefer, but the straight boost from expertise it what puts it over the top for me. That is why I would prefer to apply a different mechanic to expertise, where bards/rogues would get new options or even an edge such as advantage when compared to other classes when it comes to skills. But a numerical "boost" that just makes them "better" for the sake of giving them a "thing" is not a good reason to me.

Put another way, it's hard to know how to offer solutions without understanding what the problem is that we're trying to solve. If the issue is that expertise makes too many things auto-succeed, which isn't fun for the expertise player, I can get behind that, and it suggests one kind of solution. If the issue is that getting a higher bonus doesn't do enough to distinguish a character's chances of success, that's also something I can get behind, but that shows why, without an overhaul to the luck mechanic, the expertise bonus *has* to be big to create a meaningful differentiation. And finally, if the issue is that you don't think rogues and bards should be better at at-will mundane skill rolls than other classes, then I'm not particularly interested in helping, but it suggests a complete redesign of those classes, and the OP doesn't really get at the issue, so it's not surprising that you're not getting suggestions that you find suitable.

Well, I apologize but throughout the thread I have been bounced around and sometimes deviated from the OP. But to address your statement, I have to say this is how I am feeling (and our table generally agrees) and what we would like to see:

"If the issue is that expertise makes too many things auto-succeed, which isn't fun for the expertise player, I can get behind that"

Stealth: due to low (extremely so in many cases) passive perception, it is nearly automatic with expertise. His bonus at level 9 is +12 (DEX 18) I think. Over 90% of the foes we face have passive perceptions ranging from 10-16, and then the odd one or two higher than that. So, he routinely only needs a 4 or better. Now, this is not including any buffs our party can lay on him, such as using Enhance Ability for up to an hour to grant him advantage on his stealth checks.

Logic: the same rogue has expertise in Athletics and is pretty strong (STR 16), which is not very common, admittedly, but very possible, and so he is +11. But, compare this to an Ogre with STR 19, with no proficiency in Athletics, let alone expertise, who only gets a +4. With that difference of +7, he rogue will WIN (not tie) over 77% of the time and have the Ogre "grappled". Now, this half-orc rogue is about 250 lbs with his gear, but due to size and strength, the Ogre can lift well over 1000 lbs. So, shouldn't the Ogre be able to lift the rogue and basically toss him like a child? I get characters are supposed to be heroic, and technique in things like grappling can allow a much smaller and weaker person control a larger one, but even with that consideration this strains reason to me. I think if you are trying to grapple a larger creature (even one size) should impose disadvantage. Likewise, perhaps when trying to grapple a smaller creature, they should have advantage to escape? I go round-and-round about these...

Giving all classes some limited access to an expertise option removes some issues (such as high arcana between a rogue and wizard, etc.), but the issue of the number boost still remains, so I don't see that, in and of itself, as a solution.

"If the issue is that getting a higher bonus doesn't do enough to distinguish a character's chances of success, that's also something I can get behind"

Going to a 2d10 system allows for a smaller spread of bonuses to have the same effect as a larger bonus on d20. For example, +8 on 2d10 leads to roughly the same probability as +12 on d20 in a contested roll. Using 2d10, a max bonus of +13 would equate to +17 on d20 more or less. I don't know if this is the answer or not, but if I did it I would probably do it across the board and do it with attacks and saves, not just skill checks. With ACs and save DCs bounded, I don't think initially this would be a bad thing but it will require further thought.

"the expertise bonus *has* to be big to create a meaningful differentiation"

Agree. Or it has to contribute meaningfully in another way that gives is a strong purpose.

"if the issue is that you don't think rogues and bards should be better at at-will mundane skill rolls than other classes, then I'm not particularly interested in helping"

Well, not in the sense of a straight number boost over other classes; no, I don't think they should be. As noted, allowing some limited expertise to other classes removes that particular issue, but the high bonus issue remains, regardless.

It is quite a bit to wrap one's head around, and at times I feel like I am going in circles LOL! :)
 

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