Pathfinder 2E Low-level Wizards in PF2 - are they still underpowered?

[MerricB]

I mean, every single time you gain a new spell level, most cantrips go up an extra die in damage value. That 1d4+mod cantrip is 2d4+mod at level 3 and 3d4+mod at level 5. And keep in mind, you can crit on Ray of Frost for double damage.

That doesn't seem that bad.

I think that eventually cantrips get better. They're not horrible at the start (though under where a fighter is), but because they're less effective than a fighter's regular attacks, I want the first-level spells to bring up the effectiveness of the wizard. If a first-level spell is on par with what the fighter can do normally, that's not impactful enough.

Remember: Vancian casting! You've got two spell slots (plus you can reuse one spell with Drain Bonded Item), which you prepare with EXACTLY the spells you'll cast.

I can't see any magic items to increase the effectiveness of cantrips, btw, nor wizard abilities.

Trying to work out how the fighter scales is an interesting matter. It's no longer "you get extra attacks at high levels", so we have to look at other abilities.

Cheers!

 

[Zardnaar]

Cantrips cost two actions to cast.

Not all of them, I found a bard one yesterday that costs 1.

 

[MerricB]

Not all of them, I found a bard one yesterday that costs 1.

I should have said "these" cantrips. I guess it's a utility bard cantrip?

Cheers!

 

[Zardnaar]

I forget the name but its basically the old inspire competences. +1 to a skill check or attack roll.

 

[MerricB]

I forget the name but its basically the old inspire competences. +1 to a kill check or attack roll.

I love that typo! "Kill check", yes!

Cheers!

 

[Zardnaar]

I'll take the 5th.

 

[mewzard]

I forget the name but its basically the old inspire competences. +1 to a kill check or attack roll.

I mean, not all of them are that. One is literally a single action Haste Cantrip called Allegro, which is really potent for a Cantrip.

 

[MerricB]

I mean, not all of them are that. One is literally a single action Haste Cantrip called Allegro, which is really potent for a Cantrip.

Interesting - it's a 7th level cantrip! (That is, the bard can't take it until 7th level).

It grants the recipient "quickened" which allows an additional action on their turn to stride, step or strike. That's not quite as good as you might first assume (as the multiple attack penalty kicks in), but it's still a cantrip I can see using - especially to move into position quickly.

Cheers!

 

[Zardnaar]

From memory allegro was level 14 in the playtest, IDK. My wife spotted it and like it a lot and she loves bards. The 5E bard is a great class but it doesn't feel very bardy more of a 3.5 Beguiler at least for the lore bard and the Valor Bard is a bit meh.

 

[mewzard]

Interesting - it's a 7th level cantrip! (That is, the bard can't take it until 7th level).

It grants the recipient "quickened" which allows an additional action on their turn to stride, step or strike. That's not quite as good as you might first assume (as the multiple attack penalty kicks in), but it's still a cantrip I can see using - especially to move into position quickly.

Cheers!

Fun note, it's almost functionally the same as Haste at any level below 7th. It adds the step option for an action, is only one action to use, specifies ally vs creature, and is one round vs a minute, but is otherwise the same. 7th level is when Haste lets you buff up to 6 creatures, so it's never quite as valuable, but you can keep it going for a full combat with little effort (especially if you take the feat to give yourself a dedicated action to do a Composition Cantrip).

There are also a few Metamagic Feats to grab for Composition Cantrips, like Lingering Composition (increased duration) and Inspire Heroics (buffs Inspire Courage and Inspire Defense).

Two other different Composition Cantrips are House of Imaginary Walls (Mime Cantrip! There are certainly ways one could use this) and Triple Time (+10 to all movement speeds for all allies within 60 feet, let's make it that much harder for a fleeing foe, or to reduce needed actions for movement).

I like having the additional special Cantrips on top of the usual ones and full Tenth Level Casting.

Super tempted to make Bard my first class.