D&D 5E A tweak for the Battlemaster fighter

Mort

Legend
Supporter
Now you need to add into the spreadsheet the additional party damage that battlemasters set up by enabling sneak attack from rogue allies. One, two or three rogue allies should be sufficient.

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;)

Or the fact that they can knock a target prone with their first attack and not only do damage, but do extra damage - and their next 2 attacks, plus that of all the allies that follow are at advantage. With the change to shield master, I think they're the only ones that can do this (without a feat and even then it would only be once a day for anyone else).
 

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Mort

Legend
Supporter
Another thought:

Even if you accept, for the moment, that the ranger out damages the BM - he only does so with the inclusion of the reaction attack happening a significant portion of the time.

This reaction attack is from giantkiller, which only happens if the ranger is fighting large+ foes. If the ranger is fighting large+ foes (and has taken giantkiller) then isn't the ranger in his element, doing exactly what he trained for?

Shouldn't he absolutely be out damaging the fighter under such circumstances?

Edit: And if he isn't, shouldn't we actually be tweaking things toward the ranger to make sure that he does?
 

Esker

Hero
Now you need to add into the spreadsheet the additional party damage that battlemasters set up by enabling sneak attack from rogue allies. One, two or three rogue allies should be sufficient.

Hah. It's true though, if there's a rogue ally, the Battlemaster gains a ton of value.

By the way, re: Paladins, a couple things.

One is that I'm assuming extremely efficient use of smites.

Two, it might be true that Paladins are the best one-handed damage-dealer, but the Battlemaster beats them when you put two-handed weapons and GWM on the table. At level 11, the Paladin has to forego an ASI to get PAM and GWM, and they actually do worse with GWM than with the ASI. But the Battlemaster can trade Hex for GWM, which boosts them above the Paladin, thanks to the impact of precision attack.

Actually even going to level 12 so the Paladin can have another feat w/o giving up a maxed attack stat, it looks like they're worse off with GWM than without, and the Battlemaster can get a familiar (which on that build is better than getting Hex if you assume 50% help). At that point the gap is pretty wide.

And depending on how often you think you'll get AoOs in melee, the CBE/SS archer may even be slightly better (if you think you get reaction attacks half the time they're not -- at least, not without figuring for cover or long range -- but if you think AoOs a quarter of the time is more realistic, they edge ahead slightly).

That said, the Paladin has so many other great abilities, chiefly the auras, and will have better uses for their spell slots than using all of them for smites, that I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to saying that they're stronger overall. (The ranger, by the way, has a reserve of unused spell slots in this analysis as well)
 

Esker

Hero
Another thought:

Even if you accept, for the moment, that the ranger out damages the BM - he only does so with the inclusion of the reaction attack happening a significant portion of the time.

This reaction attack is from giantkiller, which only happens if the ranger is fighting large+ foes. If the ranger is fighting large+ foes (and has taken giantkiller) then isn't the ranger in his element, doing exactly what he trained for?

Shouldn't he absolutely be out damaging the fighter under such circumstances?

Edit: And if he isn't, shouldn't we actually be tweaking things toward the ranger to make sure that he does?

I don't think it's even true that the ranger out-damages the BM (at level 11) if you give them constant reaction attacks. Based on my spreadsheet at least, with the daily combats set as they are, plugging in 100% reaction attacks for the ranger and reduce the BM's reaction attacks to 25%, it only gets the ranger about a 5 point DPR edge over the battlemaster. But that includes colossus slayer, which is worth about... 5 points per round. And you don't get both colossus slayer and giant-killer.

So even assuming the giant-killer ranger is in their element fighting large foes all the time, they only pull even with the Battlemaster (though if you assume more and longer combats, they do get a lead).
 

Mort

Legend
Supporter
I don't think it's even true that the ranger out-damages the BM (at level 11) if you give them constant reaction attacks. Based on my spreadsheet at least, with the daily combats set as they are, plugging in 100% reaction attacks for the ranger and reduce the BM's reaction attacks to 25%, it only gets the ranger about a 5 point DPR edge over the battlemaster. But that includes colossus slayer, which is worth about... 5 points per round. And you don't get both colossus slayer and giant-killer.

So even assuming the giant-killer ranger is in their element fighting large foes all the time, they only pull even with the Battlemaster (though if you assume more and longer combats, they do get a lead).

I agree,

I was just pointing out that even if you accept the OPs initial assertion, you still probably shouldn't tweak the BM for more damage.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
There’s a few situations I can see the ranger out performing the battlemaster. 40 rounds of combat per day. 0-1 shirt rests per day

Heck even a shorter day with less short rests favors the ranger I think
 


Esker

Hero
Just curious. What happens if you lower short rests to 1 per day

Doing this while leaving the rounds/combat and combats/day the same, and setting reaction % at 50, the duelist PAM builds (with the Battlemaster taking Hex) are very nearly even (I get 39.2 vs 38.7 DPR, favoring the Battlemaster).

Going up to 8 combats/day the ranger pulls ahead slightly (by about 1 DPR).
 



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