What is the essence of D&D

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[Tony Vargas]

It would depend on the spell, a fighter could adopt a stance I suppose that could duplicate the level 9 foresight but probably have a shorter duration and be able to use it more frequnetly.

That sounds like a 'no.'

If a fighter is doing supernatural things for no explanation just because its not really the essence of D&D

I was very clear about the hypothetical manuevers NOT being supernatural.

...what you're describing isnt the essence of D&D and its a different genre.

So to be clear, you would judge a variation on 5e that retained the Vancian system and spellpattern, but included expanded manuevers comparable in power to spells, using CS dice comparable in number and recovery to slots, to not really be D&D. Even though it holds classic spells and spellcasters to the 5e Vancian model, resources & advancement.

I agree, of course.

Vancian & the spell/level pattern aren't sufficient to establish the Essence of D&D.

 

[Zardnaar]

That sounds like a 'no.'
I was very clear about the hypothetical manuevers NOT being supernatural.
So to be clear, you would judge a variation on 5e that retained the Vancian system and spellpattern, but included expanded manuevers comparable in power to spells, using CS dice comparable in number and recovery to slots, to not really be D&D. Even though it holds classic spells and spellcasters to the 5e Vancian model, resources & advancement.

I agree, of course.

Vancian & the spell/level pattern aren't sufficient to establish the Essence of D&D.

It's part of it though.
Your hypothetical fighter would depend on the execution and if it was one option like 5E or was the only fighter.

Making a new class doing such things would probably be a better option at least in the 5E context.

Much like you can't really have a 5E warlord on the fighter chasis.

Something like that might be better off in an ISR game make it as powerful as you like but crappy xp table.
My variant 5E fighter would probably shift some of the high level fighter abilities forward. More action surges, second winds, more saving throw proficiency etc earlier.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Actually, to be honest, I think this is one of the clearest examples of answering the question in the OP. What is the "essence" of D&D? Well, looking at the one edition that is considered to be "not D&D" is a pretty good place to start. What about 4e makes it stand out from other editions? And yeah, I'm really buying into the whole "primacy of magic" argument. Because this is the one stand out difference from 4e to every other edition. Virtually anything else you want to point at actually exists in other editions.

So, while folks might not like the answer, the answer, to me, clearly is, "Magic is the greatest thing and everything else is secondary is the essence of D&D".

When I think back to my first year with the hobby, I recall being really puzzled by Traveller and Top Secret, because there was no advancement equivalent to acquiring magic items, which seemed such a large & important part of D&D - Gamma World, OTOH, with artifacts to be unearthed, just fine.

 

[Tony Vargas]

It's part of it though.

I suspect Vancian & the spellpattern could be - and has been, in some old-school variants - messed with or replaced without losing D&D-ness. Spellpoint or 'mana' variants - which I was surprised to see 3e pass over in favor of the Sorcerer - were pretty common, and generally derided as broken, rather than "not D&D," for instance.

Your hypothetical fighter would depend on the execution and if it was one option like 5E or was the only fighter.

I was thinking a few martial classes, but all using the manuever mechanics for the bulk of their options & effectiveness.

So no mere beatsticks or meat-shields.

Making a new class doing such things would probably be a better option at least in the 5E context.

Sure, its just a hypothetical. It needn't be elegant or balanced - plenty of D&D hasn't been either - to be judged in accord with or contrary to the Essence of D&D.

 

[Zardnaar]

I suspect Vancian & the spellpattern could be - and has been, in some old-school variants - messed with or replaced without losing D&D-ness. Spellpoint or 'mana' variants - which I was surprised to see 3e pass over in favor of the Sorcerer - were pretty common, and generally derided as broken, rather than "not D&D," for instance.

I was thinking a few martial classes, but all using the manuever mechanics for the bulk of their options & effectiveness.

So no mere beatsticks or meat-shields.

Sure, its just a hypothetical. It needn't be elegant or balanced - plenty of D&D hasn't been either - to be judged in accord with or contrary to the Essence of D&D.

I don't care to much about perfect balance. Only when it's very lopsided or obviously OP.

If a new martial class is better than say fighter big whoop. If it's better than the Paladin it's also going to be better than Ranger, Barbarian etc so there's that PoV.

The execution is everything.

It's like at will attack granting, worked in 4E, can work in OSR, not a good idea in 5E.

 

[Xenonnonex]

The essence of D&D is fun as a group.

And needlessly pointless arguments.

 

[Arnwolf666]

Irrelevant people like it. It's D&D.

I love it!!!

Although I still 4E was a good game. I like it more for Gamma World than D&D

 

[Arnwolf666]

The essence of D&D is fun as a group.

And needlessly pointless arguments.

I disagree. That is roleplaying games in general or any game. But that's my opinion. I love Runequest. I would not call it D&D.

 

[Tony Vargas]

The execution is everything.

The hypothetical execution of the hypothetical class(es) can be assumed flawless, hypothetically.