What is the essence of D&D

[Zardnaar]

You realize that you're actually supporting @Tony Vargas' point right? Non casters can never be equal to casters because "it's magic" is a valid reason. And "it's magic" ALWAYS trumps everything in D&D because magic uber alles.

You can Nerf magic to an extent, give the fighter magic (ie Eldritch Knight) or make the fighter better in other ways. A wish spell might be one thing, perhaps a fighter can take a feat or something that lets him invoke a deity for a similar effect.

Using the 3.5 fighter for example those feats could be spent in 4E type powers, outright magical powers or a mundane +1 to hit.

I have noticed in 5E an at will attack tends to deal about half a daily slot and a magical at will tends to deal less damage than a martial at will.

 

[Zardnaar]

So, again, you're agreeing with @Tony Vargas. Primacy of Magic is the essence of D&D. If you don't have that, then it's not D&D.

Magic should do magical things. Raising the dead for example.

How powerful it is relative to everything else is the actual problem hence the 5E fighter having various short rest abilities.

In old D&D fighters were better at getting domains. It's something, makes them better in a different way.

 

[Hussar]

Really? A 5th level at will is doing 2d6-2d10 damage with possible damage riders.

A single attack from a fighter won't be doing much more damage than that. Now, the multiple attacks certainly will, fair enough. But, by the time fighters are getting 3 attacks per round, the casters aren't using at-will spells too often anymore - they have enough slots to burn through actual spells every round.

 

[Hussar]

Magic should do magical things. Raising the dead for example.

How powerful it is relative to everything else is the actual problem hence the 5E fighter having various short rest abilities.

And thus the Primacy of Magic It's built right into what you are saying. Magic should do magical things and everyone else who isn't using magic CAN'T do anything that magic can do. Full stop. Thus Magic is Prime. That's the essence of D&D.

You're not actually disagreeing with me here. I totally agree with what you are saying. The essence of D&D is that anything outside the realm of what a real life human could do MUST be achieved by magic. Only magic should do magical things, after all.

I mean, good grief, we Raise the Dead in real life every day now with modern medical technologies. Whose to say that our fantasy world doesn't have herbal medicines that, coated in a bit of chocolate, wouldn't do the same thing? Maybe he's only mostly dead.

But, in D&D, the answer is a flat no. You can ONLY do this with magic. It MUST be magic. Thus, the essence of D&D is the Primacy of Magic.

 

[Zardnaar]

Really? A 5th level at will is doing 2d6-2d10 damage with possible damage riders.

A single attack from a fighter won't be doing much more damage than that. Now, the multiple attacks certainly will, fair enough. But, by the time fighters are getting 3 attacks per round, the casters aren't using at-will spells too often anymore - they have enough slots to burn through actual spells every round.

I include multiple attacks. A fighter at 5th level will deal 1d8+5 or 2d6+3 minimum.

4d6+6 over two attacks is slightly more than half an 8d6 fireball. Yes the fireball has a bigger Size but the fighter can action surge as well.

Throw in second wind, an extra feat etc the fighter is competitive in a different way although it's heavily focused on damage.

I'm not a big fan of the 5E champion as such my idea if a good fighter is more like one from the 2E phb.

Damage matters a lot in 5E though since the monsters are mostly buckets of hit points. I don't bother casting many damage dealing spells. My last PC was a healing focused celestial Warlock, before that a dual wielding halfling fighter and a fighter/rogue type 3pp class that wasn't very good.

 

[Yardiff]

I keep checking in this thread hoping it will have morphed back into an interesting discussion, but it looks like it's still just an ongoing flogging of a horse that's been dead for six years.

Same here. Sad.

 

[Hussar]

The problem is, @Zardnaar, nothing you are saying is actually countering the main point. Even if your great sword wielding fighter hits four times for 8d6+12 damage, he's still only doing that to one target. The wizard is doing that to at least two. You cannot compare the two really.

Or, put it another way, if your wizard/sorcerer isn't the highest total damage dealer in your group, either the player chose to go a different direction or there is something seriously wrong. There's no chance a fighter could even come close to total damage that a wizard or sorcerer can do. And certainly not after about 7th level.

But, again, I'm not just talking about damage. Think about what you said, the BEST your fighter can do 1/short rest is still half what a wizard can do twice a day by 5th level. At best, you might, just maybe still be short by half if you get a two short rest day and get 3 action surges. And, all it cost that 5th level wizard was 2 3rd level slots. He's still got 7 more slots plus another on a short rest.

 

[Hussar]

Same here. Sad.

Actually, to be honest, I think this is one of the clearest examples of answering the question in the OP. What is the "essence" of D&D? Well, looking at the one edition that is considered to be "not D&D" is a pretty good place to start. What about 4e makes it stand out from other editions? And yeah, I'm really buying into the whole "primacy of magic" argument. Because this is the one stand out difference from 4e to every other edition. Virtually anything else you want to point at actually exists in other editions.

So, while folks might not like the answer, the answer, to me, clearly is, "Magic is the greatest thing and everything else is secondary is the essence of D&D".

 

[Zardnaar]

The problem is, @Zardnaar, nothing you are saying is actually countering the main point. Even if your great sword wielding fighter hits four times for 8d6+12 damage, he's still only doing that to one target. The wizard is doing that to at least two. You cannot compare the two really.

Or, put it another way, if your wizard/sorcerer isn't the highest total damage dealer in your group, either the player chose to go a different direction or there is something seriously wrong. There's no chance a fighter could even come close to total damage that a wizard or sorcerer can do. And certainly not after about 7th level.

But, again, I'm not just talking about damage. Think about what you said, the BEST your fighter can do 1/short rest is still half what a wizard can do twice a day by 5th level. At best, you might, just maybe still be short by half if you get a two short rest day and get 3 action surges. And, all it cost that 5th level wizard was 2 3rd level slots. He's still got 7 more slots plus another on a short rest.

So wizards don't have second wind, d10 hit dice, armor and martial weapons. Or weapon styles. Or extra ASIs. And fighters have better saves.

 

[Zardnaar]

Actually, to be honest, I think this is one of the clearest examples of answering the question in the OP. What is the "essence" of D&D? Well, looking at the one edition that is considered to be "not D&D" is a pretty good place to start. What about 4e makes it stand out from other editions? And yeah, I'm really buying into the whole "primacy of magic" argument. Because this is the one stand out difference from 4e to every other edition. Virtually anything else you want to point at actually exists in other editions.

So, while folks might not like the answer, the answer, to me, clearly is, "Magic is the greatest thing and everything else is secondary is the essence of D&D".

It was specially 4E execution of it.
It wouldn't bother me to much if a level 18 fighter in 3.5 could spent a feat to gain access to a lot level 9 spellslots or whatever.

Maybe level 6 since the fighter retains other class abilities.

Whether you have magical fighters or every class has powers the effect is similar.

That's more a class design issue. Or look at a lot of AD&D spells they're a lot weaker than 5E ones.

Class stuff is also going to relate to the edition it's designed. A high damage fighter in 5E is useful with high hitpoint critters.