What is the essence of D&D

[Guest 6801328]

I keep checking in this thread hoping it will have morphed back into an interesting discussion, but it looks like it's still just an ongoing flogging of a horse that's been dead for six years.

 

[Zardnaar]

Essence of D&D, right there.

;(

...


I don't want you to think I'm ignoring you, but I'm just going to skip the personal bits and stick to the topic: Not entirely. The perception in question is 4e being NOT D&D.

I'm just assuming that. I don't think it needs to be argued. The phenomenon of the Edition War needn't be re-examined in detail, it's mere existence stands as ample evidence of that perception.

Given that, it's a matter of looking at the commonalities of other eds and how 4e conformed with or deviated from them.

The Primacy of Magic not only fits the bill, it's a very prominent feature.

Imagine if martial classes got as many and powerful (albeit, with cosmetically different mechanics) maneuvers as casters did spells. The spellpattern would be preserved, but the Primacy of Magic erased.
Think it'd be received as really D&D?


What Vancian meant changed radically over time. In 3e spontaneous casting was seen as an an alternative to Vancian (even though 3e Clerics & Druids could spontaneously use prepped slots to cast specific spell). In 5e, neo-Vancian co-opted it.

It would depend on how it was implemented.

I look more at the power level. A fighter shouldn't be able to log a fireball for example unless its MC or Eldritch Knight.

I don't mind if they give fighters way to do supernatural things as long as there's an in game reason for it. Say a fighter threw a boulder to the moon. It's silky but fine if said fighter is a demigod or something like that.

 

[Tony Vargas]

It would depend on how it was implemented.

Say, greatly expanded CS Dice & Manuevers. The Fighter would have as many CS dice as casters' slots, and more powerful manuevers would only work with larger CS dice.

I look more at the power level. A fighter shouldn't be able to log a fireball for example

Same power level, but in no way supernatural (unrealistic/superhuman, perhaps). So, no fireball, but cutting down a dozen orcs, no two more than 40' apart, like an anime swordsman, at 5th level, at the cost of your biggest CS die, sure.

Still D&D?

 

[Zardnaar]

Say, greatly expanded CS Dice & Manuevers. The Fighter would have as many CS dice as casters' slots, and more powerful manuevers would only work with larger CS dice.

Same power level, but in no way supernatural (unrealistic/superhuman, perhaps). So, no fireball, but cutting down a dozen orcs, no two more than 40' apart, like an anime swordsman, at 5th level, at the cost of your biggest CS die, sure.

Some sort of spring attack on steroids is probably fine but fighters get a form of this with action surge in 5E although its encounter based but 3 of them probably equal a daily not fireball.

As I said it would depend on implantation as fighters get other advantages over wizards lie better saves generally, d10 HD etc. I don't mind power creep if something is underpowered and I had fighters do something similar to this in 2E.

This still boils down to moar damage better though. Anything supernatural is probably going to draw comparisons to animie though.

5E triedt to fix this I suppose with 1/3rd casters and that could easily be 1/3rd psionic or whatever.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Some sort of spring attack on steroids is probably fine but fighters get a form of this with action surge in 5E

Assume stuff like action surge and any Style perks in excess of cantrip power moving to manuevers.

as fighters get other advantages over wizards

So do clerics & Druids, but get as many slots.

Anything supernatural is probably going to draw comparisons to animie though.

Heck, I drew the anime comparison, doesn't imply supernatural. So, again, explicitly, however powerful /not supernatural/.

That's critical, because, if it's supernatural, it's supporting the Primacy of Magic, not defying it.

So, still D&D if a high level fighter can throw down a manuever to rival a 9th level spell?

I kinda doubt it.

(I mean, 4e got there by really reigning in spells, as well)

 

[Zardnaar]

Assume stuff like action surge and any Style perks in excess of cantrip power moving to manuevers.
So do clerics & Druids, but get as many slots.

Heck, I drew the anime comparison, doesn't imply supernatural. So, again, explicitly, however powerful /not supernatural/.

That's critical, because, if it's supernatural, it's supporting the Primacy of Magic, not defying it.

So, still D&D if a high level fighter can throw down a manuever to rival a 9th level spell?

I kinda doubt it.

(I mean, 4e got there by really reigning in spells, and, even then, spells arguably had the edge, of only in variety rather than power)

It would depend on the spell, a fighter could adopt a stance I suppose that could duplicate the level 9 foresight but probably have a shorter duration and be able to use it more frequnetly.

If a fighter is doing supernatural things for no explanation just because its not really the essence of D&D more superheros or animie/wuxia genre IMHO.

Things have to be internally consistent and if fighters can point a sword and fire a meteor swarm out of it or teleport a long distance and then attack everyone they better have ome reason for it vs "the wizard can do it".

"Its magic" is all the explanation you really need.

If you go to far down this logic though you would need to buff wizard damage up so its at will stuff is close to a fighters, then you have to do AC as well to make it far, then you probably need to down power everything.

Which is what 4E did and people daim things feel to samey or boring as everything is some amount of damage or some amount of damage+ some condition.

So buffing fighters in a variety of ways is fine, but what you're describing isnt the essence of D&D and its a different genre.

 

[Hussar]

/snip
Imagine if martial classes got as many and powerful (albeit, with cosmetically different mechanics) maneuvers as casters did spells. The spellpattern would be preserved, but the Primacy of Magic erased.
Think it'd be received as really D&D?
/snip

It would depend on how it was implemented.

I look more at the power level. A fighter shouldn't be able to log a fireball for example unless its MC or Eldritch Knight.

I don't mind if they give fighters way to do supernatural things as long as there's an in game reason for it. Say a fighter threw a boulder to the moon. It's silky but fine if said fighter is a demigod or something like that.

But, therein lies the rub. A 5e ranger, for example, gets an at will small area fireball at 11th level. Attack every target within 10 feet of the original target (which, presuming a medium target gives us a circle with a 25 foot diameter). But, the point being, it takes the ranger six levels just to get a lower powered fireball attack that the wizard got at 5th level. An 11th level fighter with action surge could attack 6 times, but, still less effective than a fireball and now limited to about 2-3 times per day. An 11th level wizard can cast fireball 2-3 times a day with no problem whatsoever.

Where you can really see the "Primacy of Magic" is outside combat though. In all those recent threads about skill checks, it was shown quite clearly that a high level rogue couldn't possibly replicate falling significant distance without taking damage. And everyone stroked their beards and said it was good. Mostly because they didn't want the rogue stepping on the monk's toes. Ok, fair enough. But, a 1st level wizard or sorcerer can Feather Fall which is a HELL of a lot better than what a monk can do, and that's perfectly fine. With 5e casting rules, you don't even have to have it "memorized" since that's a thing of the past. Just has to be on your spells known list.

There's virtually nothing a character with skills can do that a caster can't do either as easily or outright easier.

Again, it's not a surprise that 5e simply made almost every character class a magic using class. We'll accept flying barbarians with diamond skin, but, the notion of a fighter being as effective as a caster? Hell no.

 

[Zardnaar]

But, therein lies the rub. A 5e ranger, for example, gets an at will small area fireball at 11th level. Attack every target within 10 feet of the original target (which, presuming a medium target gives us a circle with a 25 foot diameter). But, the point being, it takes the ranger six levels just to get a lower powered fireball attack that the wizard got at 5th level. An 11th level fighter with action surge could attack 6 times, but, still less effective than a fireball and now limited to about 2-3 times per day. An 11th level wizard can cast fireball 2-3 times a day with no problem whatsoever.

Where you can really see the "Primacy of Magic" is outside combat though. In all those recent threads about skill checks, it was shown quite clearly that a high level rogue couldn't possibly replicate falling significant distance without taking damage. And everyone stroked their beards and said it was good. Mostly because they didn't want the rogue stepping on the monk's toes. Ok, fair enough. But, a 1st level wizard or sorcerer can Feather Fall which is a HELL of a lot better than what a monk can do, and that's perfectly fine. With 5e casting rules, you don't even have to have it "memorized" since that's a thing of the past. Just has to be on your spells known list.

There's virtually nothing a character with skills can do that a caster can't do either as easily or outright easier.

Again, it's not a surprise that 5e simply made almost every character class a magic using class. We'll accept flying barbarians with diamond skin, but, the notion of a fighter being as effective as a caster? Hell no.

If the wizard can cast the fireball at will you have a point.

If a fighter can attack everyone in a 20' radius why play a damage dealing wizard?

If you change that dynamic you have not D&D.

You could probably design a better system now everything is at will, no dailies for anyone, fighters deal a bit more damage wizards can ritual non combat spells but yeah that's not D&D.

It's only a problem if you have to play a fighter. Don't like it okay a different class. D&D doesn't do it for ya, play something else.

If everyone leaves then you have a problem.

 

[Hussar]

It would depend on the spell, a fighter could adopt a stance I suppose that could duplicate the level 9 foresight but probably have a shorter duration and be able to use it more frequnetly.

If a fighter is doing supernatural things for no explanation just because its not really the essence of D&D more superheros or animie/wuxia genre IMHO.

Things have to be internally consistent and if fighters can point a sword and fire a meteor swarm out of it or teleport a long distance and then attack everyone they better have ome reason for it vs "the wizard can do it".

"Its magic" is all the explanation you really need.

If you go to far down this logic though you would need to buff wizard damage up so its at will stuff is close to a fighters, then you have to do AC as well to make it far, then you probably need to down power everything.

Which is what 4E did and people daim things feel to samey or boring as everything is some amount of damage or some amount of damage+ some condition.

So buffing fighters in a variety of ways is fine, but what you're describing isnt the essence of D&D and its a different genre.

You realize that you're actually supporting @Tony Vargas' point right? Non casters can never be equal to casters because "it's magic" is a valid reason. And "it's magic" ALWAYS trumps everything in D&D because magic uber alles.

 

[Hussar]

If the wizard can cast the fireball at will you have a point.

If a fighter can attack everyone in a 20' radius why play a damage dealing wizard?

If you change that dynamic you have not D&D.

You could probably design a better system now everything is at will, no dailies for anyone, fighters deal a bit more damage wizards can ritual non combat spells but yeah that's not D&D.

It's only a problem if you have to play a fighter. Don't like it okay a different class. D&D doesn't do it for ya, play something else.

If everyone leaves then you have a problem.

So, again, you're agreeing with @Tony Vargas. Primacy of Magic is the essence of D&D. If you don't have that, then it's not D&D.