What is the essence of D&D

[Garthanos]

When you say casters are over powered late in their career its argued but nobody hardly plays there... if you complain something also made them potentially over powered at low level...it was yeh but that isnt valuable later in their career.

 

[Nagol]

Ummm no it only affected your spells known later in career a much lower cost than slots ie you do not use it when it indeed faded but this class is super flexible.

Two types of slots in 1e: (a) spells known and (b) spells memorized (or prepared in more modern parlance)

Knowing sleep eats a known spells slot. Is this likely to be a problem at 1st level? No., but if your Int is merely 16, you've already consumed about a quarter of the total 1st level spells you can know with your 3 initial spells.

Is it likely to start being a concern by 5th? Possibly even probably. Is sleep likely to be memorized once you're past 7th level? Maybe a single application, just in case.

 

[Garthanos]

Intelligence​	Chance to Know​	Minimum​	Maximum​
9​	35%​	4​	6​
10-12​	45%​	5​	7​
13-14​	55%​	6​	9​
15-16​	65%​	7​	11​
17​	75%​	8​	14​
18​	85%​	9​	18​
19​	95%​	*11​	All​
20​	96%​	12​	All​
21​	97%​	13​	All​
22​	98%​	14​	All​
23​	99%​	15​	All​
24​	100%​	16​	All​
25​	100%​	17​	All​

 

[Garthanos]

Isnt that the table you are talking about I do not rememver the kind of limit you were talking about for known spells and the about - and that maximum was "a maximum number of spells of each level which the character can understand"

 

[Tony Vargas]

Once a day for a limited opposition types. And one of your 9 to 18 1st level slots was now locked in something that will have degrading value over time. It was a big trade off. Often one a player liked, but a trade off.

To be fair, missing out on your 9th or 18th lowest-priority 1st level spell choice, in return for swinging significant fights, instead of casting Push or something at 1st & 2nd level, is a pretty OK trade-off.

that maximum was "a maximum number of spells of each level which the character can understand"

Know/Understand, there were some spells - unless you had a 19+ int - you'd never be able to memorize.

But, depending on which contradictory/ambiguous/variant rules the DM ignored/interpreted/adopted, which spells those were might be up to you - or entirely random.

Casting faced profound limits & challenges in 1e, it made the Pimacy of Magic that much more vibrant and dramatic - and frustrating.

Every decision the MU made could be all important "If only I'd memorized lightning bolt instead of fireball, more of my henchmen would've survived."
You never hear a fighter's ghost lamenting "If only I'd brought the glaive-guisarme instead of the guisarme-volgue!"

 

[Nagol]

Isnt that the table you are talking about I do not rememver the kind of limit you were talking about for known spells and the about - and that maximum was "a maximum number of spells of each level which the character can understand"

Yep, that's the one. Maximum number of spells known limits the number of spells a magic-user can ever learn (creating new spells excepted) for each spell level. A magic-user got one chance to learn a spell using the chance to know percentage, and no ability to erase that knowledge -- even if they lost their spellbook. The only time you got a second chance to learn the spell is if you tried all the spells and failed enough that you didn't hit the minimum number known.

 

[Arnwolf666]

Heh.

The only time I've ever seen a Staff (well, in this case a Wand) of the Magi in play it went like this: character acquires the wand in town (can't remember if by purchase or she'd had it specially commissioned) at cost of about 3/4 of her total wealth, gets all excited, and heads back out into the field with the party.

At the very first possible opportunity to use it she pulls it out, gets hit by a lightning bolt, fails some saves badly, and the Wand blows up in her face. The only shred of luck she had was making her save vs the enormous amount of explosion damage, meaning she didn't drop dead on the spot.

Sounds like a jerk DM to me

 

[Garthanos]

Yep, that's the one. Maximum number of spells known limits the number of spells a magic-user can ever learn (creating new spells excepted) for each spell level.

7 to 11 spells potentially learned for that level 1 option having one of those be a sleep seems way better than fine.

 

[Nagol]

7 to 11 spells potentially learned for that level 1 option having one of those be a sleep seems way better than fine.

Oh, it is fine, it's just a trade off.

For example,

Here are the 11 first-level spells one of my magic-users knows:

• Charm Person
• Comprehend Language
• Dancing Lights
• Detect Magic
• Detect Secret Doors
• Feather Fall
• Identify
• Magic Missile
• Mending
• Read Magic
• Unseen Servant

He had tried and failed to learn Tensor's Floating Disc and Write.

When he was low level, Sleep would have been very tempting. Given the option later in his career, I don't think he'd swap anything for it.

 

[Arnwolf666]

I really don’t want to play d&d without magic. And yes magical healing should have a big effect on the game. What’s the use to have it if it doesn’t make a big difference on the game. It should have the “wow”’effect. The person was bleeding to death and is now healed. Cool.

An another topic I preferred it when evil casters weren’t capable of casting healing spells. They just weren’t capable and their gods couldn’t grant the spells. Had alot more flavor.