When is the skill check made?

clearstream · Oct 12, 2019

For tasks that take time, when is the skill check made? Is it made over that whole duration? Or at the end? Or...?

One reason I ask is that in another thread, a few posters suggested that a spell like guidance should not work on a task that takes longer than one minute. Implying that the check is made over the duration of the task, rather than at the end. (Because, were it at the end, then couldn't the guidance caster wait until just before the end?)

I think this interpretation leads to imagining that guidance is in operation over the whole 1 minute; but how about bardic inspiration? With inspiration, one has 10 minutes to use the die. I think this interpretation means something like - the task would need to start and resolve completely inside that 10 minutes. Looking then at Lucky, I think this interpretation means that the feat is used at the last possible moment - the instant of task completion. Because, to be consistent, I think we want all the buffs and re-rolls to be occurring inside the task duration.

A residual question is, is it that only one cast of guidance and one inspiration die can be used for a given task? What I mean is, could a magical initiate cast guidance at the start of a 2 minute task, and then recast it 30 seconds in, and then again after another 30 seconds, and then again. Thus with four casts spanning the whole 2 minutes.

MarkB · Oct 12, 2019

I don't think there's an official ruling on this, because it's a bit metaphysical. When you undertake a task, your ability check determines how well you perform that task, so it applies to the entirety of that task - but that doesn't dictate when, in in-game terms, the skill check takes place, because the character in game isn't making a skill check - they're simply performing a task.

Personally, I'd rule generously and say that, providing the character begins their task before the duration of the guidance cantrip or inspiration die runs out, they can be considered to be guided and/or inspired for the full duration of that task.

For the Lucky feat the timing is irrelevant - you are essentially rewriting history on that check, expending you luck to declare that it went differently than it would otherwise have done.

Hriston · Oct 12, 2019

An ability check (note that skills are aspects of abilities, but that, often, no specific skill is being tested and a more general test of the ability is called for) is made at the table when it’s being resolved whether a task was successful in the fiction. Reading guidance in that light, I think it can apply retroactively to an ability check that has already been made.

DND_Reborn · Oct 12, 2019

IMO anything that would increase success probability is likely done at the onset of the task. Guidance might show someone the best place to begin, same with Bardic Inspiration.

Hriston · Oct 12, 2019

I think Bardic Inspiration works the same way. At the table, it looks like this:

1. Player A declares his/her character is performing some task.
2. The DM calls for an ability check.
3. Player A rolls the check and the result of the die roll is seen.
4. Player B declares his/her character is giving Bardic Inspiration to Player A’s character.
5. Player A rolls his/her Bardic Inspiration die and adds it to the result.
6. The DM says whether or not the task is a success or a failure.

As long as Bardic Inspiration is given or guidance is cast before 6., it applies to the check.

Umbran · Oct 12, 2019

Hriston said:
An ability check (note that skills are aspects of abilities, but that, often, no specific skill is being tested and a more general test of the ability is called for) is made at the table when it’s being resolved whether a task was successful in the fiction. Reading guidance in that light, I think it can apply retroactively to an ability check that has already been made.

No, because you are eliding from what's happening in the fiction, to what happens in the rules.

Rules-wise, the spell/ability would need to be applied before the die roll to resolve the action.

Fiction-wise, you can describe this as the cleric coming along and giving their blessing after the character has started the action, but before we know whether it was successful.

Either way, the spell is applied before we know what the result will be.

Ganders · Oct 12, 2019

I believe your implication isn't quite correct. It isn't a matter of requiring guidance to be up for the full duration of the task. It's more a matter of some people wanting to restrict guidance, to make it useless in at least half of all tasks. 'Duration' is merely a palatable excuse and explanation.
Let's face it, Guidance is a really useful, really powerful cantrip. There are many ways it could be nerfed and still be useful. If it were useful five times a day instead of fifteen times a day, many characters would still take it.

Hriston · Oct 12, 2019

Umbran said:
No, because you are eliding from what's happening in the fiction, to what happens in the rules.

I am? How so?

“Umbran said:
Rules-wise, the spell/ability would need to be applied before the die roll to resolve the action.

No, both the spell and the ability state that the additional die roll can be applied after the d20 has been rolled.

“Umbran said:
Fiction-wise, you can describe this as the cleric coming along and giving their blessing after the character has started the action, but before we know whether it was successful.

Either way, the spell is applied before we know what the result will be.

I don’t think we disagree on this. What you seem to be missing is that there’s a design space between the die roll and the DM’s narration of success or failure that these rules exploit.

aco175 · Oct 12, 2019

I tend to allow the check at the start of the act. Something like guidance may do something to your senses like open your eyes more or increase blood flow to allow you to be a bit sharper for your check.

After the roll abilities are a bit harder to explain, but I go with it saying things like A diving burst of knowledge boosts what you were just looking at, or the great shout startles you and you notice something you did not see before. A bit of a stretch, but I may have said something like- oh, you just missed the roll.