When is the skill check made?

iserith

Magic Wordsmith
I don't think it is intended either. For one thing, the option to roll the die prior to the check seems to make most sense if it is imagined the check might occur after the 1 minute.

That is how I have ruled, but it leads to the cantrip being applied more than feels good.

The question I would ask myself is: Is guidance spamming, which is a perfectly natural result of how you've been ruling, an intended outcome of the design?

If you don't think so, then maybe the ruling isn't the right one. I mean, this may be giving the designers too much credit, but at the very least, it's not the right ruling in your game if you don't like the result. Personally, I'm inclined to believe that the designers did not intend for players to spam guidance.

I think that the creature the cantrip is cast on, and not the caster, decides what check to apply it to. For example - rogue "can I have guidance to help, um, search for secret doors", cleric "sure", rogue sotto voce "I add the d4 to my sleight of hand, pick pockets check".

That is my understanding as well. A character under the effect of a guidance spell might perform more than one task during that minute (a thief with fast hands comes to mind) and choose any one of those tasks to benefit from the spell.
 

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clearstream

(He, Him)
The question I would ask myself is: Is guidance spamming, which is a perfectly natural result of how you've been ruling, an intended outcome of the design?

If you don't think so, then maybe the ruling isn't the right one. I mean, this may be giving the designers too much credit, but at the very least, it's not the right ruling in your game if you don't like the result. Personally, I'm inclined to believe that the designers did not intend for players to spam guidance.
Indeed, that is the catch: if this conundrum was straightforward, I might have already found a solution :D
 

iserith

Magic Wordsmith
For a two-hour task, I think it would go something like this:

Player 1: Drom mans the oars and rows the party across the Boiling Lake.

DM: It’s three miles across the lake, so it’s going to take about two hours. Also the heat and fumes are going to make it difficult to propel the boat forward through the turbulent, bubbling waters. Make a DC 20 Constitution check. If you succeed, you make to the other side. If you fail, you’ll be stranded half way across the lake until you all figure something else out.

Player 1: Aw jeez, I rolled an 18.

Player 2: Seeing Drom beginning to falter, Elye puts a hand on the warrior’s back and casts guidance, entreating Marduk to grant him strength!

Player 1: Thanks, I’m going to use that. Alright, I rolled a 3!

It's not clear to me how one goes from the words on the page to that ruling, but if it works for you, I got nothing.
 

I don't think the game is playable RAW since it's not precise enough in its language.

Then I think we fundamentally disagree on the nature and purpose of the rules.


That is how I have ruled, but it leads to the cantrip being applied more than feels good.

Then change the spell. Limit it. Change it to +1d2 or +1. Change it so it can't affect the same person doing the task more than once. Change it so that it can't be cast on the same cast more than once every 10 minutes. The rules exist as a framework for the game. The framework should support your campaign. The same rules that define the spell explicitly empower you to change and alter them as you see fit. Make the rules create the framework you want to support. You win no prizes for following the rules as written. Figure out what goal you want to achieve with your change, and then change it. But if it's "I don't want them to use guidance all the time" then you should probably just ban it. If for no other reason than wasting table time every time someone does something.

Look, it's one thing to come to the Internet and say, "Is this too good? I think we're having a problem," and to seek feedback and discussion from others. But it's only useful if you act on it. If you're not going to act on it, then it's not the game's problem anymore. No, I'm not saying "the game isn't broken because you can house rule it," I'm saying, "identifying a rule as needing to change for your table and choosing not to change it is your fault, not the game's."

Here's my take on guidance:

Personally, I have found that reminding players that it's a touch spell, and that it's got verbal and somatic components and therefore is just as obvious as casting any spell is enough. It's is a significant disincentive in a dungeon or social setting. Most NPCs find characters randomly casting spells deeply concerning and moderately aggressive, just like the players do. (What kind of honorable person needs magic in a conversation, after all?) Furthermore, I never put skill checks in place that the players aren't allowed to overcome (supposed to overcome, even). If I don't want the players to overcome something, I don't let them roll at all. Why would I let you roll if I know you can't get past something? So it doesn't bother me all that much if they overcome skill tests. They're not meant to really be that challenging anyways. At the end of the day, anything that guidance works on wasn't a big deal in the first place. It was put there for the players to get past. If the players succeed because they remember what's on their character sheet and they work together, for God's sake let them. That's the whole point.

More and more as I run the game, I don't allow rerolls of most skills. The first die roll determines the outcome. That means the players get one roll. If they succeed, then they pass. If they fail, then it didn't work and the players should move on. If they fail, and the adventure requires them to succeed, then they still will pass but something unfortunate happens or the process involves additional difficulties. Either way, they get one roll. That one roll is enough to create the equitable uncertainty required for the game to progress. I don't need 10 die rolls as an exercise in random number generation. That's just a waste of time.

Finally, make players describe what they're doing before letting them roll the die. For knowledge checks it's obviously not possible, but the reality is that this is the most difficult part of making skill checks. Yes, great, god is helping you. What are you doing? How are you going to do it? What is your approach? How long are you going to try? I still need to know all that. Anybody can roll high on a d20. The difficulty and challenge of the game shouldn't be about that except when it has to be (i.e., attack rolls). So don't make the players feel like they're getting a major bonus by rolling an extra +1d4.

Besides, mathematically, the spell only does something meaningful roughly 12% of the time.

I think that the creature the cantrip is cast on, and not the caster, decides what check to apply it to. For example - rogue "can I have guidance to help, um, search for secret doors", cleric "sure", rogue sotto voce "I add the d4 to my sleight of hand, pick pockets check".

Simply put -- and this was the point of the way I wrote the narrative in this post -- the narrative doesn't have to directly follow the game mechanics. Close enough is good enough. Remember, "character" choices are really player choices. The game just says "character" because continually saying "the player or DM in control of the character" is cumbersome. The narrative doesn't need to include a conscious choice by the character. That choice can easily be considered as an event of the game and not the narrative. The player makes the choice. The character accepts their fate.
 

Hriston

Dungeon Master of Middle-earth
@Hriston Is the above in accordance with how you see it?
No, not very much. You could probably tell from the example I posted earlier that I’m thinking of a game in which the resulting narrative is more closely aligned with and arises directly from the action at the table. I’m actually not sure I understand how the narrative given in @Bacon Bits‘s example is arrived at through the instance of play they describe. It seems like between the two a lot of embellishment has been added, and it’s unclear whether they were added through gameplay or through some other process.
 


Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
The spell's duration is 1 minute. You can't roll the d4 after that minute is up. It's gone, done, expired. To roll the d4 inside of a minute for a 2-minute task, you must effectively establish that the ability check takes place at a certain point in time in the fiction when the ability check does not actually exist in the game world.

I can trigger it on the task at hand and if I never get a check, it's wasted. Like aiming a magic missile at an object. If I do get a check, I get to add d4. There is no requirement to wait for a check or complete the task.

The task being started and completed within the duration of the spell satisfies all of the requirements and limits and does away with guidance spamming (the OP's issue).

There's no issue. Just use it the way I'm suggesting, which is perfectly within RAW and it's one cast per task.



No, I'm not arguing no skill is being used in the game world. I'm arguing no ability check is being rolled in the game world and that is true. You're suggesting more language games.

It's not a language game. The check is nothing more than the mechanical representation of the skill being used. They are the same thing.
 

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