When is the skill check made?

[Maxperson]

Guidance spamming is used in at least two ways in this thread. One is the hypothetical of casting and recasting in a chain to span the whole duration of the task, if a DM were to rule that way.

This is an example of the DM creating the problem.

The other is the actuality of players who are allowed to apply guidance to any check, always doing so because it is a nigh-free resource.

It's not really free, though. It requires mental focus, which means effort. If a player tried that in my game, he'd quickly find out that trying to stay focused for that long of a period of time is not only not possible, but would quickly become mentally tiring and exhaustion levels would set in for a while. People just can't concentrate on things every minute like that.

 

[Maxperson]

RAW, such as that from Bardic Inspiration, states that a creature knows when it is about to make a check, and knows when it has done so -

"The creature can wait until after it rolls..." PHB53.

Guidance continues that -

"It can roll the die before or after making the ability check." PHB248.

Thus RAW tells us that creatures know when will be the right moment to cast.

The creature doesn't know when that check is coming though, or even that a check has happened. What the creature knows is that, "Oh crap, this negotiation is about to fail, let me me use the magic to try and help this situation." or "I'm trying to forge this piece of armor, let me use the magic to guide me for a bit."

The creature isn't aware that a roll just happened or that the inspiration allows an extra roll, or that Guidance adds a d4. The creature just knows that inspiration and guidance both help with the effort.

 

[clearstream]

. It requires mental focus, which means effort. If a player tried that in my game, he'd quickly find out that trying to stay focused for that long of a period of time is not only not possible, but would quickly become mentally tiring and exhaustion levels would set in for a while. People just can't concentrate on things every minute like that.

You're okay with a sorcerer concentrating for 2 hours on an extended polymorph, right? That said, for me the stronger rebuttal might be that characters can do a lot of things that from our perspective are superhuman.

I'm not sure where I would draw the line, but probably I would use the lack of sleep and exhaustion rules as a mechanical cap.

 

[clearstream]

The creature doesn't know when that check is coming though, or even that a check has happened. What the creature knows is that, "Oh crap, this negotiation is about to fail, let me me use the magic to try and help this situation." or "I'm trying to forge this piece of armor, let me use the magic to guide me for a bit."

The creature isn't aware that a roll just happened or that the inspiration allows an extra roll, or that Guidance adds a d4. The creature just knows that inspiration and guidance both help with the effort.

The second paragraph does not follow from the first. The fiction is rearticulated at the model layer. Meaning that whatever the creature does know, in the fiction, it is enough to choose between before or after the check at the model layer. That's simply a re-representation or mapping.

 

[iserith]

No it won't. Once the task is started, you can trigger the spell effect to use it before the roll, as per the spell as written. There is nothing written anywhere that says that the spell will need to be up for the entire duration. This is your ruling for how it works in your game, not how it works RAW.

Except that completing the task simply is not required. Once before the spell ends, such as during a task that hasn't completed yet, you can add d4 to the roll when the check is made. That d4 can be added before the roll, such as halfway through the task, and it will be present once the check is called for.

Doing it that way I have just laid out satisfies the following.

1. Once before the spell ends, the target can roll a d4 and add the number rolled to one ability check o f its choice.

2. It can roll the die before or after making the ability check.

3. The spell then ends.

There is no requirement to complete the task before the spell ends for all of the above to be true.

Rolling before or after will almost always be irrelevant, so the benefit of rolling before will be the same as rolling after. You only have 1 minute and it will be unlikely that you will be performing multiple ability checks in that time frame that will need the d4, and if you do, you can just cast the spell again.

The spell's duration is 1 minute. You can't roll the d4 after that minute is up. It's gone, done, expired. To roll the d4 inside of a minute for a 2-minute task, you must effectively establish that the ability check takes place at a certain point in time in the fiction when the ability check does not actually exist in the game world. The task being started and completed within the duration of the spell satisfies all of the requirements and limits and does away with guidance spamming (the OP's issue).

You're arguing that there is no skill being used in the game world, when there is. If you are using a skill, then that skill can succeed or fail. That chance to succeed or fail is a "check"(for lack of a better term) in the game world. The mechanic just models that in-fiction "check."

No, I'm not arguing no skill is being used in the game world. I'm arguing no ability check is being rolled in the game world and that is true. You're suggesting more language games.

You have yet to provide a reason for that other than, "Because when taking the rules as a whole into account, it follows that the task must be started and finished within the duration of the spell."

That is just your opinion on what the rules show, and not one that is backed up by the actual rules from what I can see.

See above.

 

[iserith]

It occurs to me that I think of skill checks and guidance mechanics as both modelling something going on in the game world. Perforce we're operating at the modelling layer, not inside the world. So if I say that "checks occur inside the fiction" I mean that whatever it is that checks model, that is going on inside the fiction. And whatever it is that guidance models, likewise.

I then articulate and enact those events and functions at, and using the terms of, the modelling layer. It's possibly a bit obscure to understand, but the upshot is a refutation of a view that the two are disconnected.

The task occurs in the game world. The character does this. The ability check happens at the table. The player does this. The ability check helps the DM determine an outcome when it is uncertain and there's a meaningful consequence for failure.

When the guidance spell says the target ("the character" in this case, since the spell is cast on the character) makes an ability check, that is just sloppy shorthand, perhaps due to the author's design conceit of using "natural language." The spell is obviously affecting the character, not the player, and the player is obviously the one making the ability check, not the character. The ability check isn't happening in the game world - the task is - and since the ability check isn't in the game world, it doesn't happen at any particular point in time. Therefore, it follows that the task must be started and completed within the duration of the spell to have its outcome affected by the spell.

Guidance spamming problem solved. Or would you rather keep the guidance spamming? I'm not sure anymore.

 

[iserith]

RAW, such as that from Bardic Inspiration, states that a creature knows when it is about to make a check, and knows when it has done so -

"The creature can wait until after it rolls..." PHB53.

Guidance continues that -

"It can roll the die before or after making the ability check." PHB248.

Thus RAW tells us that creatures know when will be the right moment to cast.

More sloppy shorthand as I describe above. You have to use your head here. Does it make sense that the creature is aware of a player rolling a d20 at the table? If that's where RAW is taking you, then what does that tell you about RAW?

 

[iserith]

Okay, care to elucidate?

At the risk of repeating myself, the task is the thing that matters since the ability check is the thing that helps the DM determine the outcome of the task and the ability check doesn't exist in the game world. Therefore, it doesn't occur at any particular point in time in the game world. Thus we have to go back to the task to judge whether guidance can affect the outcome. And it does - for tasks that begin and end within the spell's duration.

I can see we’re not going to get anywhere on this. I get your point that rolling an ability check is not the player saying what s/he wants to do, but it seems to miss my point that neither is it the DM describing the result, and since that step hasn’t been arrived at, that it’s entirely appropriate for the player of the caster to say s/he wants to cast a spell.

It's neither Step 2 nor Step 3 is the point. You had said previously as I recall that it was part of Step 2. There's nothing that say that in the rules. It's somewhere between 2 and 3, but part of neither.

I’m not sure you’re fully understanding what I’m saying then, so I’ll ask you directly. Are you with me that a player can declare a one minute action that the DM deems worthy of a check, and that after the check is rolled, another player can cast guidance on the first player’s character, who can then use the extra die on the check that was just rolled?

Essentially, no. A player declares an intention to do a task. Before doing so, the caster casts guidance on that player's character. Or as I mentioned upthread, the player might say "I do X" and the player of the caster says "Before you do that, I cast guidance on you." What you can't do in my view is cast the spell anytime after someone starts to undertake the task and gain the benefit of the spell regardless of the task's duration. The task must start and finish within the spell's duration. This means no guidance spamming. Guidance is still a very useful spell, just not useful for all tasks. And that seems about right for a cantrip, doesn't it?

 

[Hriston]

At the risk of repeating myself, the task is the thing that matters since the ability check is the thing that helps the DM determine the outcome of the task and the ability check doesn't exist in the game world. Therefore, it doesn't occur at any particular point in time in the game world. Thus we have to go back to the task to judge whether guidance can affect the outcome. And it does - for tasks that begin and end within the spell's duration.

The spell’s duration is also a thing in the game-world, so it seems to me that, at any moment at the table during an instance of game play, the fictional state either will or won’t contain the fiction that a casting of guidance is in effect. If it does, then the target can add a d4 to an ability check of its choice. At least, that’s what the spell says.

It's neither Step 2 nor Step 3 is the point. You had said previously as I recall that it was part of Step 2. There's nothing that say that in the rules. It's somewhere between 2 and 3, but part of neither.

Well, what the rules do say (and maybe this is just a matter of the way it’s presented) is that “the DM ... often relying on the roll of a die to determine the results of an action” falls under step 2. Now, as I said, maybe that’s just presentation. It really isn’t important for my point, which is that the result of the ability check necessarily precedes step 3, and that there’s nothing in the rules to prevent guidance from being cast at that point.

Essentially, no. A player declares an intention to do a task. Before doing so, the caster casts guidance on that player's character. Or as I mentioned upthread, the player might say "I do X" and the player of the caster says "Before you do that, I cast guidance on you." What you can't do in my view is cast the spell anytime after someone starts to undertake the task and gain the benefit of the spell regardless of the task's duration. The task must start and finish within the spell's duration. This means no guidance spamming. Guidance is still a very useful spell, just not useful for all tasks. And that seems about right for a cantrip, doesn't it?

That isn’t my interpretation, no, but I can see it works for you, and I appreciate your explanation.

 

[iserith]

The spell’s duration is also a thing in the game-world, so it seems to me that, at any moment at the table during an instance of game play, the fictional state either will or won’t contain the fiction that a casting of guidance is in effect. If it does, then the target can add a d4 to an ability check of its choice. At least, that’s what the spell says.

Right, the spell and the task both have a duration which exists in the game world. But the ability check doesn't and isn't connected to any specific time in the game world. To me, that means the tasks needs to be accomplished during the duration of the spell. The side effect is that guidance is still useful, but on a smaller range of tasks, and spamming goes away. In a pragmatic sense, this looks to me as evidence this is the correct call. (Notably, I didn't make this call because I had a spamming issue either. It was just how I understood the rules to work and so I never had the issue. I have seen plenty of it in other games though and it's reported on the internet regularly as an issue.)

Well, what the rules do say (and maybe this is just a matter of the way it’s presented) is that “the DM ... often relying on the roll of a die to determine the results of an action” falls under step 2. Now, as I said, maybe that’s just presentation. It really isn’t important for my point, which is that the result of the ability check necessarily precedes step 3, and that there’s nothing in the rules to prevent guidance from being cast at that point.

I would say that's presentation, yes. But let's say a character undertakes a task that will take 2 hours. As long as someone comes along and casts guidance on that character at some point in the undertaking of that task, even if the spell only lasts for 1 minute, that character's player gets to add a d4 to the ability check? Is that your position?