When is the skill check made?

[doctorbadwolf]

No, I am saying there explicitly isn't such a space, in terms of the rules. You can narrate what you want, but the rules are clear on the order. If the GM says what the result of the d20 roll is, it is too late to add the extra die.

I thought they were referring to the space between the roll and the DM declaring success or failure?

 

[Charlaquin]

I think the problem here is that the wording on duration of Guidance and Bardic Inspiration conflates actions and checks. Unless we’re meant to assume that guidance’s duration is given in real-time (which would be very strange,) there is no way to determine whether or not the check was made “within the spell’s duration.” It’s like asking if your popcorn will be finished within one minute of Luke’s arrival on Degobah.

Now, it is pretty safe to assume that if the action that the check is being made to resolve both starts and ends within 1 minute of Gudance being cast, then it should be able to benefit from the spell. But, if the action started within 1 minute of Guidance but ended 10 minutes later, or if the action started 9 minutes before Guidance but ended within 1 minute of it? Then I’d say it’s a DM judgment call.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

But the buff can't come 10 minutes before the roll is made - as guidance only lasts 1 minute.

I’m not sure what you’re replying to?

But the “roll” doesn’t ever happen in the fiction. The action happens in the fiction. If the action begins within 1 minute of Guidance being cast, Guidance works.

Overthinking this stuff like it’s a philosophy class doesn’t lead anywhere useful.

 

[iserith]

Is there anything in RAW that clearly states when a check occurs in relation to the in-world acts needed to complete a task? And, same question, about whether guidance couldn't be recast repeatedly to span the duration (which, if the check occurs at some point, means that some instance of guidance should be running at that point)?

There is nothing in the rules to my knowledge that states when an ability check occurs in relation to the game world because the ability check doesn't exist in the game world. An ability check resolves uncertainty as to the outcome of a task, when there is a meaningful consequence for failure. A character (or monster) does a thing. The DM isn't sure whether it is a success or failure and failure has some meaning. So he or she asks for an ability check. This part happens outside the context of the game world at no particular point in time in said world. Because of this, the caster or bard or whoever cannot pinpoint when a check will occur and thus can only affect tasks that begin and end within the duration of the spell or feature. For guidance, that's 1 minute. For bardic inspiration, that's 10 minutes.

Though there is no explicit prohibition against spamming guidance (for example) working for tasks that take longer than a minute, this is implicit in the core resolution mechanic in my view. It simply doesn't make sense when taking the relationship between checks and tasks into consideration. And when it is taken into consideration, problems with guidance simply go away.

Reflecting on how I run the game, I have inclined toward supposing that a check happens at a single point in time, at the end of the necessary acts. That is because say a task requires acts A, B, C and D. If a character does A, B and C, I would rule that they do not get a check, because they failed to carry out D. For me then, that implies that a check is made at a point in time - at the completion of D.

If the character does not perform the necessary steps to perform a task, the task fails, sure. But characters aren't making ability checks - players are. The way you phrase this also indicates to me that your players may be asking to make ability checks which is common to tables that conflate the notion of tasks and checks and it is generally these tables that run into problems with guidance-spamming. Separating those two concepts, and not saying when an ability check occurs in the game world (because it doesn't exist there) makes it easy to see why guidance doesn't work that way.

 

[iserith]

I think the problem here is that the wording on duration of Guidance and Bardic Inspiration conflates actions and checks.

That's exactly the source of the problem in my view. And a very common one that leads to these sorts of outcomes.

 

[FrogReaver]

I think the problem here is that the wording on duration of Guidance and Bardic Inspiration conflates actions and checks. Unless we’re meant to assume that guidance’s duration is given in real-time (which would be very strange,) there is no way to determine whether or not the check was made “within the spell’s duration.” It’s like asking if your popcorn will be finished within one minute of Luke’s arrival on Degobah.

Now, it is pretty safe to assume that if the action that the check is being made to resolve both starts and ends within 1 minute of Gudance being cast, then it should be able to benefit from the spell. But, if the action started within 1 minute of Guidance but ended 10 minutes later, or if the action started 9 minutes before Guidance but ended within 1 minute of it? Then I’d say it’s a DM judgment call.

I think it's reasonable to pick an in fiction event to be what corresponds to roll the skill check in reality. As long as you are doing that then there's no conflation, no issue.

For example, stealth rules seems to call out that you make the check when you start to stealth. However, something like investigation - that check can be made at any point during the course of action. When you start, when you finish, when you actually pull out the desk drawer, etc.

What I'm trying to say is that viewing the skill check as inherently untied from the fiction is problematic - so always tie it to some fictional event.

 

[iserith]

I realize you've called out the bolded part as your personal opinion, but, to be clear, it's something you're adding to the requirement for using the extra die stated in the spell itself, which is only that the extra die must be rolled and added within a minute after casting, as long as the caster maintains concentration.

As I state a couple posts above, there is no explicit requirement, but it is implicit in the core resolution mechanic in that tasks and checks are different things. You can have a task without a check, but not a check without a task. But a check is not a task, nor a task a check. Checks don't exist in the game world.

Why? The duration only applies to rolling and adding the extra die, not to performing a task or even making an ability check.

Your prohibition against spamming having an effect also seems forced to me. Why wouldn't continuously casting guidance on a creature benefit the resolution of any task undertaken by the creature as long as the spell is up, provided the extra die is added under the duration of one of the castings?

Because the check doesn't exist in the game world, it does not occur at any particular point in time. Therefore, for the outcome of the task to be affected by the spell or class feature, it follows that the task must be started and end within the duration of the spell.

I'm still not seeing any prohibition against a declaration to cast guidance immediately following an ability check being rolled. Remember, we're still in step 2 of the basic pattern of play, "The players describe what they want to do." Step 3 is "The DM narrates the results of the adventurers' actions." We haven't gotten there yet. The ability check is part of step 2. The player of the caster is then describing his/her character casting guidance at the critical moment. I don't see any reason why that declaration shouldn't feed into the resolution mechanic which then informs the DM's resulting narration when we eventually arrive at step 3.

Technically, the ability check is not part of Step 2. It's somewhere between Step 2 and Step 3, if there is an ability check at all. The problem is that the "critical moment," if you mean that to be when the ability check is made, does not exist in the context of the game world. If you are saying that the ability check does occur at some point in the fiction, that is a house rule because there is nothing to my knowledge that says when an ability check happens when a task is being undertaken. It happens at the table, not in the game world. The spell or class feature happens in the game world and improves the chances of success in the task by affecting the dice at the table. To square this all up and to avoid conflating tasks and checks, the task must be started and completed within the duration of the spell or class feature.

 

[FrogReaver]

I’m not sure what you’re replying to?

But the “roll” doesn’t ever happen in the fiction. The action happens in the fiction. If the action begins within 1 minute of Guidance being cast, Guidance works.

Overthinking this stuff like it’s a philosophy class doesn’t lead anywhere useful.

The event that you are using to trigger the roll does happen in the fiction - or at least should.

So if you try to cast guidance at right before the action starts - then you may get no benefit if the check isn't called for until the completion of that action. Likewise if you wait to cast it right before the action ends - well, i'm not really sure how you are timing that - but even assuming you can - then you may get no benefit as the check may have been called for at the beginning of the action or really any other point during the action.

So the only way to ensure guidance has the effect you desire is to spam it over the course of the players action. That alone alievates all issues except the issue of groups attempting to resolves tasks sequentially instead of in parallel.

 

[Charlaquin]

For example, stealth rules seems to call out that you make the check when you start to stealth.

I don’t think they do...

What I'm trying to say is that viewing the skill check as inherently untied from the fiction is problematic - so always tie it to some fictional event.

I strongly disagree. Conflating actions with the checks used to resolve them is far more problematic in my opinion. Just making a call about whether or not guidance works on an action that takes more than one minute to complete solves the problem without causing other problems.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

The event that you are using to trigger the roll does happen in the fiction - or at least should.

So if you try to cast guidance at right before the action starts - then you may get no benefit if the check isn't called for until the completion of that action. Likewise if you wait to cast it right before the action ends - well, i'm not really sure how you are timing that - but even assuming you can - then you may get no benefit as the check may have been called for at the beginning of the action or really any other point during the action.

So the only way to ensure guidance has the effect you desire is to spam it over the course of the players action. That alone alievates all issues except the issue of groups attempting to resolves tasks sequentially instead of in parallel.

As long as you understand that you’re making that up, and it isn’t by any means RAW, have fun.