D&D 5E Fighter Non-Combat Ability Brainstorm

[Bawylie]

I think one of the issues when going in this direction is 5E begins to lose some of the simplicity it is well-known for. When you already consider most classes through level 20 will end up with 15-20 features, nearly one per level, and also racial traits, there is already quite a bit to keep track of.

Not necessarily so. IMO once you assign these varied class options into gear selections, you can remove the classes themselves. Simplicity shifts. You want to be good at combat, you pick the warrior class and some weapons to taste. You don’t have to see if ranger, paladin, barbarian, monk, or fighter fit best.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Not necessarily so. IMO once you assign these varied class options into gear selections, you can remove the classes themselves. Simplicity shifts. You want to be good at combat, you pick the warrior class and some weapons to taste. You don’t have to see if ranger, paladin, barbarian, monk, or fighter fit best.

I suppose I would have to see it in the process before I was convinced, but you have a point.

It's funny: sometimes I love complex games, but I have found as I get older I prefer simplier systems where I can focus more on the character and adventure than the mechanics and options. Having played 1E most of my life, I am pretty happy with playing a simpler game. (Of course, some of the rules in 1E were more complex...)

 

[Garthanos]

I think one of the issues when going in this direction is 5E begins to lose some of the simplicity

One how many spells does a spell caster select from at high level? vs how many interesting effects a Battlemaster might get?

Basically one might need it to be a selected for complexity.... or call it AD&D

I realised when creating an Intelligence secondary build for the fighter in 4e I did indeed want a Thibault Destreza fighter to have literally a book of exploits ... and some ways to trade them out within the fight (incurring action economy cost). Doubling the powers encounter/daily is a lot to choose from in 4e

 

[DND_Reborn]

One how many spells does a spell caster select from at high level? vs how many interesting effects a Battlemaster might get?

Basically one might need it to be a selected for complexity.... or call it AD&D

I realised when creating an Intelligence secondary build for the fighter in 4e I did indeed want a Thibault Destreza fighter to have literally a book of exploits ... and some ways to trade them out within the fight (incurring action economy cost). Doubling the powers encounter/daily is a lot to choose from in 4e

Well, I can't speak about 4E as I have never played it, but from what I know if it and looking at games like Pathfinder, niether would really appeal to me.

Like the battlemaster, I don't really care for them and probably never will unless I heavily house-rule it. I am not a fan of abilities that should be at-will but are limited, I despise superiority dice (and find the idea quite inferior actually).

 

[Garthanos]

Ironically my adjustments to the 5e battlemaster do make its abilities by the time the Fighter reaches level 5 functionally at will.

 

[Garthanos]

and looking at games like Pathfinder, niether would really appeal to me.

I am not sure about pathfinder 2, I am fairly certain it walks into the land of very complex. Comparatively 4e rules are pretty much right there with the power no looking naughty word up and to me looks like PF2 has the same problem 3e had player/DM nose in book syndrome. So as far as wanting simpler I do have some empathy. 4e hit the mark for me and I am not sure I would want to take the Educated Fighter feat I made to enable the broad set of powers. I think 4e encounter powers are great (easily pictured for the martial types as tricks that are hard to repeat once the enemy has seen you pull them off) and 5e short rest powers suck with most of the issues of Dailies LOL. its like usual any good things from 4e the 5e designers didnt get what made them good.

 

[Tony Vargas]

. Having played 1E most of my life, I am pretty happy with playing a simpler game.

Well, sure, I was pretty worn down by the excessive/unnecessary complication of AD&D, myself, and that was after only 15 years. A 5 year break of mostly Storyteller, though and I was up for 3.0.

I am not a fan of abilities that should be at-will but are limited.

So you don't care for slots or hps?

Because 5e slot casting isn't like classic memorization or prep, where the single-use rubric is imposed on the fiction. And, cantrips and rituals show that there's unlimited-use magic.

And hps, well, without some sort of fatal called-shot variant, they're just an arbitrary limit on the should-be-at-will ability to kill things by stabbing/crushing/chopping vital bits of them.

 

[Quickleaf]

@cbwjm Thanks for the kind words. The issue there was word count – the "warrior" had grown longer than the cleric or wizard classes.

@GlassJaw The move I tried before – and it seems like you're kicking off the brainstorm with a similar move – is to provide a list of non-combat options akin to the Warlock's Eldritch Invocations? Something like at every # number of levels this alternate version of the Fighter gets to choose one?

Eldritch Invocations are an eclectic grab-bag – a mix of themes, combat, and non-combat – but there are a couple trends that they have in common:

• Invocations tend not to step on the toes of feats, though some skate that edge. Assuming you want to maintain that design principle, that means your example Nightwatchman – which steps on the toes of the Skulker feat – would not be a good candidate for inclusion.
• Invocations tend not to grant proficiency, expertise, or advantage on ability checks (with two exceptions: Beguiling Influence & Cloak of Flies). I believe this is intentional design to preserve the Rogue as the "skill monkey." Sounds like that's a design principle you also want to stick to?
• Several Invocations grant spells off the warlock's spell list. There's no parallel for the fighter here, is there? If a player wants a spellcasting fighter they can either be an Eldritch Knight, or take the Magic Initiate feat, or multiclass.
• Five Invocations build on the eldritch blast cantrip. A fighter parallel would be building off a basic attack, Disarm, Grapple, or Shove. However, this would contradict your focus on non-combat abilities, so not sure if there's a good fighter parallel that fits.

This significantly restricts the design space for fighter non-combat abilities modeled after Eldritch Invocations. They can't emulate feats, enhance or provide proficiency in skills, provide spellcasting, or enhance basic attacks. So that means you're looking at secondary systems in the game, which are heavily weighted toward exploration btw (e.g. dehydration/starvation, encumbrance, and so forth)...and the Ranger's Natural Explorer already interacts with some of these, further limiting the design space. And the only social system I see that rules could interact with (and still follow the guidelines for Invocations) is the friendly/indifferent/hostile "status" of NPCs.

 

[Garthanos]

So you don't care for slots or hps?
Because 5e slot casting isn't like classic memorization or prep, where the single-use rubric is imposed on the fiction. And, cantrips and rituals show that there's unlimited-use magic.

My action economy experiment to gain an encounter potency power using an at-will could work for casters too of course if you allowed the encounter which allows aquiring a daily to repeat it could allow everyone willing to spend 2 weak actions to do a very strong one.

And you would have no more arbitrary "daily" limits need apply to climactic powers.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Well, sure, I was pretty worn down by the excessive/unnecessary complication of AD&D, myself, and that was after only 15 years. A 5 year break of mostly Storyteller, though and I was up for 3.0.

FYI, I meant AD&D was a simpler game. As I wrote before, sure some of the mechanics were a bit more complex, but simple enough that a 10-y.o. could understand them--so maybe not some complex after all.

So you don't care for slots or hps?

Because 5e slot casting isn't like classic memorization or prep, where the single-use rubric is imposed on the fiction. And, cantrips and rituals show that there's unlimited-use magic.

And hps, well, without some sort of fatal called-shot variant, they're just an arbitrary limit on the should-be-at-will ability to kill things by stabbing/crushing/chopping vital bits of them.

Nope, don't like slots. We've tried spell drain variants and settled on spell points. It is still limiting, but much more versatile than slots for the way we play.

HP are also limited, but in 5E refresh SO easily they might as well be limitless once you reach a certain point in the game. Near-death is almost unheard of IME.