D&D 5E An Odd Rules Issue with Suggestion

[Tony Vargas]

2. The goblins are sort of tag teaming their running away - as one goblin passes the other, the leading goblin passes the sword off to the passing goblin. This allows them to get the sword further away from the party.

Huh? As in, they're on different initiatives? And started less than a move-dash apart? And there're members of the party going between them, as well as before/after?

So 'passing' the sword (free object interaction) assures that the sword is with the goblin furthest along at the point each member of the party takes their turn?

That's just nuth'n but cyclical-initiative system-artefacts. After one round of those shenanigans, I'd say switch to some other resolution method than combat initiative. That could well be just narrating what happens next, with or without a few checks from the PCs in pursuit and some dice rolling behind the screen.

 

[Quartz]

Holding players responsible for DMs deciding to metagame and ignore how spells work is some pretty bizarre reasoning,

I disagree: the PCs have seen the goblins switch back and forth.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I disagree: the PCs have seen the goblins switch back and forth.

Due to risible metagaming.

 

[Hussar]

Heh, it's funny what different people find objectionable. The "passing back and forth" part doesn't even begin to bother me. I honestly don't care. In game, it makes sense as the goblins are scrambling away, one pulling ahead of the other, sometimes one not moving as far so that it can attack, that sort of thing. That part didn't bother me at all.

The goblin under the effects of the suggestion spell refuses to let go of the sword as he plans to throw it back as per the caster's request. On his turn, the goblin throws it back 20 to 60 ft. to the dismay of his comrade at which point the undead make a play for the sword.

Ok, that's one ruling. Now, why. Why does the Suggested Goblin refuse to let go? Contrary to the Suggestion is one reason I could see. And, thinking about it now, that's probably the way I would go, since, the Suggestion was to throw the sword back, and letting the sword go would make completing that Suggestion impossible.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Heh, it's funny what different people find objectionable. The "passing back and forth" part doesn't even begin to bother me. I honestly don't care. In game, it makes sense as the goblins are scrambling away, one pulling ahead of the other, sometimes one not moving as far so that it can attack, that sort of thing. That part didn't bother me at all.

I mean, I can imagine a 'keepaway" scene like that, semi-comical, one goblin runs, trips, tosses the next one the sword, it gets tackled, laterals...

...of course, the goblins I'm picturing in that scenario are from Labyrinth.

And the cyclical initiative artifact wouldn't necessarily apply, it's just that it sounded like it was just that artifact causing them to pass it back and forth. (Thus all the '?' in my first reply.)

Now, why. Why does the Suggested Goblin refuse to let go? Contrary to the Suggestion is one reason I could see. And, thinking about it now, that's probably the way I would go, since, the Suggestion was to throw the sword back, and letting the sword go would make completing that Suggestion impossible.

Is a Fumble spell even in this edition? That'd've done it.

 

[iserith]

Heh, it's funny what different people find objectionable. The "passing back and forth" part doesn't even begin to bother me. I honestly don't care. In game, it makes sense as the goblins are scrambling away, one pulling ahead of the other, sometimes one not moving as far so that it can attack, that sort of thing. That part didn't bother me at all.

Me either. This thread reminded me of a situation I posted about over a year ago involving goblins, movement, initiative, and the sleep spell and, man, a lot of people did not like what was going on.

Ok, that's one ruling. Now, why. Why does the Suggested Goblin refuse to let go? Contrary to the Suggestion is one reason I could see. And, thinking about it now, that's probably the way I would go, since, the Suggestion was to throw the sword back, and letting the sword go would make completing that Suggestion impossible.

Chiefly to honor the achievement of player's stated goal via the approach of the suggestion spell since the goblin failed its save. But also because goblins are "small, black-hearted, and selfish" per the MM. And because I'm the DM in my example and I said so and what the DM says goes!

 

[Blue]

3. Bard casts Suggestion on the goblin carrying the sword. Suggests that the only way the goblin will survive is if he throws the sword back. Goblin fails saving throw, and I feel this is a perfectly legitimate suggestion.

Hmm, assuming this is a reasonable suggestion (which if they are running for fear of their life and not increasing the distance it probably is), then I would have had the goblin fight to hold onto it. If they don't have it they can not "throw the sword back", and will therefore not survive. Forget just not being an "ally", that other goblin is now trying to do something that directly threatens your life as you believe it.

 

[MarkB]

A couple of considerations:

First, the goblin with the sword is aware of the tactics he and his buddy have been using. He knows that, even if he doesn't have possession of the sword at the start of his next turn, he is still likely to gain possession of it by the end of his turn - and so long as his buddy isn't more than a single move away from him, he'll still have an action with which to throw the sword. So having his buddy take the sword from him doesn't fundamentally remove his ability to then throw the sword on his turn.

Second, Suggestion isn't a mental command - it's a clearly-worded, clearly audible statement. That means that the goblin's buddy knows that the Suggestion was issued, and may be able to discern from the target goblin's demeanour whether he was swayed by the suggestion. So maybe the second goblin no longer trusts the first one to be in charge of the sword, and comes in fully intending to actually snatch it away rather than merely assuming that it will be handed over willingly.

 

[Hussar]

Something to keep in mind is there are a lot more details going on than I’ve gone into here for the sake of brevity.

It’s probably more productive to simple take it as given that there are good reasons for what I’ve outlined happening the way they are. Just something to keep in mind.

But yeah@Iserith, at the end of the day I think that’s probably the best way to go. Don’t take pc successes away.

 

[Blue]

A couple of considerations:

First, the goblin with the sword is aware of the tactics he and his buddy have been using. He knows that, even if he doesn't have possession of the sword at the start of his next turn, he is still likely to gain possession of it by the end of his turn - and so long as his buddy isn't more than a single move away from him, he'll still have an action with which to throw the sword. So having his buddy take the sword from him doesn't fundamentally remove his ability to then throw the sword on his turn.

Unless his friend throws it back. The situation has changed.

Second, Suggestion isn't a mental command - it's a clearly-worded, clearly audible statement. That means that the goblin's buddy knows that the Suggestion was issued, and may be able to discern from the target goblin's demeanour whether he was swayed by the suggestion. So maybe the second goblin no longer trusts the first one to be in charge of the sword, and comes in fully intending to actually snatch it away rather than merely assuming that it will be handed over willingly.

So, new information, clearly heard to a goblin who can be pretty sure that their friend heard it as well. "If you don't throw the sword back, you won't survive".

The goblin fails his save, and believe it. He has no reason to think the other (swordless) goblin doesn't believe the threat/suggestion.

So the other goblin comes to grab the sword. If the only way to survive is to throw it back, the changed situation means that what happen before will not happen again. Either he retains it to throw it back, or the other goblin - the backstabbing bastard - will throw it back and I'll die.

Remember, the goblin BELIEVES this. He will not survive unless HE throws it back. And the situation has changed because the other goblin has heard it as well, so there is no surety that what happened before will happen again.

As for the swordless goblin, he can either attempt a free action grab, which won't work if the other goblin is not handing it over, or can use an action t try and take it away, which means they aren't Dashing and the party will catch up.