D&D General What Is Magic, Even?

[doctorbadwolf]

Okay, so, a recently closed thread almost had an interesting discussion buried in it, but because it was related to emotionally charged topics, it wasn’t ever gonna happen there.

So let’s try it here!

What the heck is magic!?

I post this in the context of dnd, because I am not satisfied with divine magic in dnd. Now, it is my opinion that IRL religious/mythological miracles are magic. Full stop.

Odin and his brothers breathing life and thought into the first people? Magic.

Burning bush acting as a conduit for god’s voice? Magic.

I genuinely cannot fathom what definition of magic precludes these things from being magic, as such, so I’m curious what others think on this topic.

Now, we have to avoid arguing about religion here, so we should try to keep examples from RL faiths to a minimum and not dig into the theology that underpins them too much, but I think there is space here for a very interesting discussion of what magic is, what separates mortal magic vs that of the divine vs the magic of lesser spirits and powers, etc.

Now, what is magic to you?

 

[Morrus]

I guess in D&D it's whatever you want it to be. Most fantasy novels have their own 'source' of magic - The Will and the Way, True Names, secrets from the Old Ones, inner power, outer power, psionics, preserving/defiling, advanced technology, blessings, divine intervention, the list goes on.

Is Star Trek's Q magic? Does Loki do magic in the Avengers movies?

 

[dave2008]

Are you wondering it there is a difference between Divine and Arcane magic?
Or between magic and spells?
Or something else?

I think I would agree with you that generally anything that can't be done with science or technology is magic, whether it is by some arcane ritual or divine will. It is all magic

Where it gets murky is technology can replicate a lot of things that appear magical. So a "god's" power could simply be advanced alien tech - if that is what you want it to be (kinda how Thor explained it in the first Thor Marvel movie)

 

[Salthorae]

Magic is the ability to draw on something to alter the fabric of the universe to suit your needs at the given moment.

Some have greater or lesser abilities to do this. Some require greater structure than others, some have greater limitations than others, but to me they all fall under this thought on some scale.

Divine magic being the greatest ability with the least structure and least limitations, down to the meanest/barest lifeform that has some sort of magic to it that only lets it do one thing in only one way and requires a formula or something to do it (so least ability, most structure and most restrictions). That life could be a human who can only cast one cantrip that does only one thing, and only once per day (I know that doesn't exist in 5e rules really, it's just an example of the sliding scale I have in my mind).

 

[TwoSix]

Magic is the replacement of physical process with imaginative will, usually through symbolic intermediaries.

I can imagine turning a human into a frog, or creating a ball of fire in the air, but there's no physical process to make that happen in our reality. I certainly can't will it to happen by saying some words and tossing some physical components around.

Now, one can postulate that our universe and a D&D universe both simply run on background rules that are different, but the fact that a D&D universe responds to symbolic thought and action implies an intelligent demiurgic force underpinning the reality. That's what makes it (possibly) different than our reality, although many people would disagree with the idea that our universe is also not magical. (After all, the Secret was a bestseller!)

 

[BookBarbarian]

Magic is cheating. It's untrustworthy.

Iron or Steel is what you need.

 

[Celebrim]

Magic is a meaningless term, but to the extent that it means anything it means things that are human or near-human working their will upon the world by the force of their conviction. Magic is systems where a person thinks something and because they thought it, it became true. The exact postulated mechanism here varies but they pretty much all boil down to, "I wanted it, and because I wanted it, it happened."

Is Star Trek's Q magic? Does Loki do magic in the Avengers movies?

For non-human entities it is almost impossible to say. Even the real and knowable(?) universe doesn't preclude the possibility that it is embedded in a higher dimensional space, and if it were part of an higher dimensional space then a higher dimensional being which intersected this space would be able to do things which would seem like magic to us just as a we could do magic if interacting with 'flatland'.

Still, I think within the context of Star Trek and the Marvel Cinematic universe, I think it's pretty obvious that it is just magic since the larger context of both Star Trek and the Marvel Cinematic universe is almost pure fantasy, with very little concerns about science, and very much a lot of ego wish fulfillment of the sort that appeals to its simian audience hooting and imagining itself super apes capable of forcing the universe to conform to its wishes and causing the opposite sex to swoon at it's virility. Psychologically the appeal of magic is it makes you feel big. To possess magic is the ultimate driving human impulse. It's the point where are laziness meets the need to make our environment conform to our wishes.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

"Causing change to occur in conformity with Will."

Its purported mechanisms are various, but generally include an element of inscrutability.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Okay, so, a recently closed thread almost had an interesting discussion buried in it, but because it was related to emotionally charged topics, it wasn’t ever gonna happen there.

So let’s try it here!

What the heck is magic!?

Sufficiently advanced technology?
Reality by fiat? ("As I Will So Mote It Be!")
Psionics surrounded by swords & castles instead of lasers and rockets?

What it probably shouldn't be is defined by exclusion. "Supernatural" or "Something Science Can't Explain" - magic is antecedent to the idea of the scientifically explainable.

So I'm going to go with the middle one. Magic is the manifestation of conscious will - belief, faith, confidence, longing, love, hate, justice, right, anger, etc - directly or indirectly.

Magic gets /called/ "magic" when it's seen as out of the ordinary, but, magic can be ordinary, too.

Yeah, that means getting up in the morning is magic, at least when a conscious person does it. (Sure seems like it some mornings.)

Now, it is my opinion that IRL religious/mythological miracles are magic. Full stop.
Odin and his brothers breathing life and thought into the first people? Magic.
Burning bush acting as a conduit for god’s voice? Magic.
I genuinely cannot fathom what definition of magic precludes these things from being magic, as such, so I’m curious what others think on this topic.

There's a distinction between Thaumaturgy - magic that accomplishes something practical, like healing the sick, or demonstrable, like levitation, or otherwise serves the purposes of the magician - and Theurgy - magic that serves the purposes of God (or the Gods, or some other higher power or purpose), maybe not exactly entirely selfless, but beyond just the magician. A Ritual like the Eucharist is Theurgy. A 'miracle,' evoked by a person, is generally Thaumaturgy.
IRL, non-believers could consider Thaumaturgy magic tricks (and charlatanism), and Theurgy legitimate religious rites & rituals - or they could opine that it's all malarkey.

Now, we have to avoid arguing about religion here, so we should try to keep examples from RL faiths to a minimum and not dig into the theology that underpins them too much, but

Hopefully that wasn't too deep.

Now, what is magic to you?

The answer I gave above is kinda the M:tA/The Secret/Ars-Magicka answer, in essence just about /everything/ people do, and the world they live in because they live in it is magic. Which is, really, just begging the question or something, I guess. Because the real answer to the question is what gets called out as magic.

In M:tA, for instance, post-modern beliefs shape the world (in itself, an en masse act of Magick) into the edge-of-global-environmental-catastrophe/rife-with-injustice/war-torn/compliant-with-scientific-laws/hell-on-earth/World of Darkness that it calls "The Consensus" or "Consensual Reality." Other beliefs, less pervasive but even more deeply held, create room for fringe science, Vampires, Werewolves, Ghosts, Miracles, etc... and find expression outside physical reality in other planes of existence, collectively The Umbra (shadow).
So while Magick (The Metaphysic of Magick: belief determines reality) is responsible for essentially everything, it's the 'minority report' of belief that gets labeled magic or supernatural. Even though some of those beliefs and the practices associated with them might be entirely internally consistent and repeatable, they're not broadly accepted enough to stand along side science and mundane experience as part of "Reality" (nature) so they're beyond it: supernatural.
Ironically, just because somethings supernatural doesn't mean it's all powerful or unlimited, it just follows different laws.

I post this in the context of dnd, because I am not satisfied with divine magic in dnd.
I think there is space here for a very interesting discussion of what magic is, what separates mortal magic vs that of the divine vs the magic of lesser spirits and powers, etc.

In D&D, magic is nothing like Theurgy nor the Metaphysic of Magick, nor any RL belief. Nor is it simply non-scientific. D&D magic is, essentially, super-power grenades. You pull the pin, and you gain a super power for a while. You get a new shipment of grenades each morning. There may not be much rhyme or reason to it (though there's certainly some rhyme, or at least alliteration, here or there), but it's perfectly consistent, dependable, and repeatable. A Scientist given some cooperative magic-users should hypothetically be able to derive exactly what's going on, or at least, describe and predict what magic is capable of in exacting detail.

In the 1e DMG, spellcasting is described as pulling energy from the positive material plane, maintaining some sort of conservation principle by exchanging it with the material components of the spells (or if none, the air exhaled by the mage as he speaks the spell), and shaping it through the symbols impressed upon his brain by the process of memorization, whipping out said symbols in the process. Yeah. Helpful, that.

In FR, it seems like "The Weave" is the explanation for magic of all kinds. That fits, because all kinds of magic work the same: spells, slots, the exact same spells on many different casters' lists, whether they're arcane, divine, or even using ki to toss elements or shadow around.

I can see all sorts of things potentially dis-satisfying about that, but what, in particular, is the issue you have with divine magic in D&D?

 

[Bawylie]

In my home games/setting:

Magic is the manipulation of elemental energies and material through arcane formulae that is limited by the laws of the material world.

Miracle and Divine Intervention describes the works of powerful supernatural entities that alter reality without respect to the laws of the material world.

A wizard (sorcerer, etc.) casts spells by applying the formula that manipulates the elements. To cast “Fly” is to manipulate the element of air, for example.

A cleric (paladin, warlock, etc.) petitions a superior being to intervene or to grant a portion of its power to the petitioner. These prayers are not spells because they depend on the divine will (or patron’s will), and not on any natural element or formulaic reaction. A warlock that casts “Fly” is not manipulating the element of air - they are asking their patron to break the normal rules of the world and cause them to fly.