D&D 5E Solving the 5MWD

[TarionzCousin]

... or everyone would level up SEVERAL TIMES PER SESSION!

I would manage to finish every campaign in three or four sessions. Woo!

 

[FrogReaver]

I remember during that time on Enworld there were some who had suggested tying recharges to exhaustion but none had, if I can recollect correctly, formulated an actual system.
If one were to change the system and have exhaustion kick in automatically
(1) How many short rests ability recharges would you allow before one received suffered a level of exhaustion?
(2) How many long rest ability recharges would you allow before one suffered from x levels of exhaustion?
(3) Would the above system apply to all levels?

I find the above questions tricky to answer - and ones which thankfully I do not need to thanks to the system of rolling or uncertainty if you wish. The uncertainty for me is a feature.
Should you be able to comfortably answer questions 1-3 then it is all good. Change it up for your table. It is a win.

1. Based on what you are saying the random aspect can basically be disregarded in terms of it's effects on the 5MWD. That's good to know.

2. All you've done is shifted the questions to - what is the starting dc I should make a check at and at what rate should the DC increase. It's the same root problem about the same how many rests per day do I want the party to reasonably take.

A few things.
Yes it is.
You have Advantage on your first roll.

That put it closer to being a 1/20 chance of occurring. That's still a pretty big chance for the first "rest" of the adventure to cause you 3 levels of exhaustion. IMO.

Overland should be treacherous.
One Travel Rest removes 1 level of exhaustion, one Long Rest removes all levels of exhaustion. Exhaustion is not the end of the world

Depends on the rate of encounters occurring during that travel... no?

As you rise in levels the +4, becomes a +6, becomes a +8...etc, so the danger starts to seep away. What I'm saying is the risk is very dependent on which levels you usually play. If your table plays levels 1-7 predominantly then make changes to suit the risk you find appropriate.

That's something I hadn't thought much about but which I definitely dislike. Higher level PC's having an easier time recovering resources. Seems strange and seems to serve no purpose.

You can change the 3 levels penalty to 2 levels or even 1.
You could have a sliding scale, fail by 5 or more you suffer x levels of exhaustion.
You can lower the DC.
Instead of giving Advantage every Long Rest, you can give Advantage for Travel Rests.

Sure, but part of my interest is why you chose the parameters you did that it's been working in your games for the past 2 years. Why did you choose 3 levels of exhaustion?

Which ones doesn't it work well for?

Any adventure where you are relatively close to the long rest site.

One example: a city adventure with tunnels owned by different factions under the city. Fairly easy to just go rest in the city at any given point.

Another example: exploring a dungeon that's within 24 hours of a long rest site.

All of these kinds of scenarios still suffer the same exact 5MWD abuse present in the original system - albeit with a little more time to allow fictional events to naturally unfold.

Apologies I'm not sure I'm understanding this sentence well, but I will try answer it.
Short journey adventure should (I assume) not require any recoveries. Once at long rest site - one would need a full 24 hours of rest before refreshing, that is not always possible, so you can likely cram 6-8 encounters between the short journey and the long rest site. Should the team not be able to rest, they recharge their abilities

But it certainly is possible that you get to the long rest site, rest, go back to the dungeon, have a fight, go back to the long rest site, rest, repeat.

Long Rest abilities the DC 10 + number of days travelled with Advantage. Worst case PC gains 3 levels, but has all their superspells/powers back and blows through the remaining encounters.
Short Rest abilities can easily be recharged daily as the DC starts much lower.

3 levels of axhaustion is a pretty big deal.

If PCs blow their load every encounter this system will teach them to curb that and plan accordingly depending on the expected travel time.

In a lot of scenarios it's even more forgiving than default 5e. A travel rest comes very close in practice to a long rest - but you can take a 2nd one if needed

I find with this system PCs actually look at the map, measure distances, work out travel time, determine if they should hustle, evaluate encounters based on resource management, plan sleepovers in the various settlements they pass so that they minimise risk (keeping DC low) during travel.

It's not that it's not appealing. it's that they aren't doing this for in fiction reasons. They instead are doing it metagame toward their recovery abilities.

 

[Sadras]

1. Based on what you are saying the random aspect can basically be disregarded in terms of it's effects on the 5MWD. That's good to know.

2. All you've done is shifted the questions to - what is the starting dc I should make a check at and at what rate should the DC increase. It's the same root problem about the same how many rests per day do I want the party to reasonably take.

You didn't like the roll due to the uncertainty it creates. So I ask you, at which point do you want the PCs to start auto gaining levels of exhaustion as opposed to rolling to see if they suffer from any? I'm not suggesting setting any DCs - there is no need if there is no roll, right?

Depends on the rate of encounters occurring during that travel... no?

Dude, how many encounters do you plan to cram into travel?
This system is for people who do not want 6-8 encounters during travel and 6-8 per day in a city. If you're running that many encounters then the standard rules are A-ok and you really have no leg to complain IMO.

That's something I hadn't thought much about but which I definitely dislike. Higher level PC's having an easier time recovering resources. Seems strange and seems to serve no purpose.

You find it strange that in D&D characters become more experienced on how to manage/conserve their resources as they level up?

Sure, but part of my interest is why you chose the parameters you did that it's been working in your games for the past 2 years. Why did you choose 3 levels of exhaustion?

Just some backstory: So the poster who came up with this idea originally
(a) Had the DC set at 5 and 15 originally (I changed that to 5 and 10, 15 was excessive in my view).
(b) Travel Rests gave Advantage (I changed that to Long Rests).
(c) The modifier was Proficiency + Prime Stat, which I used for well over a year (at first level +5/+6 minimum with most characters as opposed to +4. In my pdf I mentioned why I didn't like that - due to a conversation with Blue about catering to a specific style).

I stuck with the 3 levels (as per the original poster)
Because the rules as they are, allow for wizards to recover (fully) in the midst of combat, 3 levels of exhaustion seem like a fitting trade (IF they fail).
Because I wanted Long Rests / walled safe cities to be valuable for wizards as it gently curbs their power (world-building wise).
Inherently overland travel becomes dangerous - something I wanted without having to cram 6-8 encounters.

Any adventure where you are relatively close to the long rest site.
One example: a city adventure with tunnels owned by different factions under the city. Fairly easy to just go rest in the city at any given point.
Another example: exploring a dungeon that's within 24 hours of a long rest site.
All of these kinds of scenarios still suffer the same exact 5MWD abuse present in the original system - albeit with a little more time to allow fictional events to naturally unfold.

If PCs are continuously running away and taking a full 24 hours to rest and then returning - chances are they are the next time they are walking into that dungeon they are walking into a TPK. If not, then I feel the enemies are not being played to their potential.
A full 24 hours means they return every 2nd day - that is a lot of time for dungeon denizens to share information and re-organise themselves. no?

In a lot of scenarios it's even more forgiving than default 5e.

Yes, because a wizard can push himself to regain his full spell allotment on the same day.

A travel rest comes very close in practice to a long rest - but you can take a 2nd one if needed

Not really. A Travel Rest doesn't cost you a FULL day. A Travel Rest doesn't reset your recovery after you have been travelling for 10 days (SR DC15, LR DC 20). A Travel Rest permits you to either remove 1 level of exhaustion or gain HD, not both....etc

It's not that it's not appealing. it's that they aren't doing this for in fiction reasons. They instead are doing it metagame toward their recovery abilities.

Sure. But now I have players interested in the map, interested in the terrain, interested in the stories and tales of these places and the possible denizens they hide, interested in the time it will take.
Metagame or not, the players are behaving likes their characters.

 

[Sadras]

FrogReaver something to note.
The reason I'm using this system is because I wanted to (1) free myself from the arbitrary rest periods which do not work well in all environments thus causing too easy or too hard adventures and (2) to gently curb the power level of magic - it had nothing to do with the 5MWD, hence I reiterate there is a distinct difference between the two subjects despite the heavy relationship that exists between the two.

 

[Garthanos]

3 levels of exhaustion is a pretty big deal.

ouch

 

[FrogReaver]

FrogReaver something to note.
The reason I'm using this system is because I wanted to (1) free myself from the arbitrary rest periods which do not work well in all environments thus causing too easy or too hard adventures and (2) to gently curb the power level of magic - it had nothing to do with the 5MWD, hence I reiterate there is a distinct difference between the two subjects despite the heavy relationship that exists between the two.

Then why do you get all defensive everytime I point out that your system doesn't solve the 5MWD?

 

[Ashrym]

There are, however, classes with no daily resources. An assumption made by the designers when "balancing" the classes.

I pointed out that all classes use a daily mechanic because that's tied to hit point and hit dice recovery. What classes don't have hit dice and hit points?

It does not make a lot of sense, no, but it is what the game design assumes will be the norm - some days less, some even more - and the classes will quickly go out of balance with eachother if you deviate.

It throws it out, yes, but by not throwing that out too much and giving the advantage to different classes and different times gives them their moments to shine. The key is varying it just enough to give everyone their solid experiences.

Some players/characters would respond "if you want our help getting her back then you'd better let us do it our way - or we may just decide to go find something better to do"

That would give them goodwill with the caravan master or other NPC's as it impacts their reputation, especially since doing it there way doesn't prevent the daughter from being ritually sacrificed in the example.

And they will never know that the ritual wasn't destined to be finished before they arrive. If you want players to play toward a timeframe you better make dang sure they know what that timeframe is. Some insinuated "get there before it's too late timeframe" rings hollow in a game where getting there in a weakened state can just as easily mean you fail to save the girl and get yourself killed in the process.

They know the girl was taken and needs rescued. It makes a lot more sense she's at risk after being taken than she's safe. And building sense of urgency is part of the DM role so yes, set the expectation in the narrative.

Which is evidence of the problem - You've got to actively write the ficitional adventures in such a way that they always conform to the resting period.

"You sleep at night." Done.

I also vary the number of encounters as seems appropriate. The worst thing that happens is short rest and at-will abilities gain prominence over long rest abilities if I allow extra short rests. That tends to be good for battle masters, monks, and warlocks; moderately useful for bards, druids, and clerics who focus on their short rest abilities more than their long rest; and largely irrelevant for rogues and barbarians. As examples.

Not always. Some rituals take weeks or months. Sometimes important NPC's get interrogated for weeks before death. Getting forces to villages is typically a more than 24 hour task. 24 hours isn't enough time for reinforcements in most cases - if there even are reinrforcements to be had.

That's arbitrarily denying the imperative. Who's to say that a 3 month long ritual isn't 89 days complete if you want to simply decide there's no sense of urgency because the DM didn't create a sense of urgency? A DM who gave the players that much time created the lack of need. If the DM wants to create the need he or she isn't going to make the ritual take 3 months.

Characters have a personal survival instinct... It's all in fiction and nothing gamist about that.

Then they wouldn't be leaving town to hunt down dragons, vampires, and beholders. PC's are heroic and face danger. They don't deliberately blow their resources so they can take the afternoon off. Deciding the character can just nova, rest, recycle, and repeat because of the rest mechanism is clearly a metagamist approach because it's deliberately attempting to leverage a game mechanic instead of roleplaying.

Encounters don't make sense to add in every scenario.

Who's job is it to build that narrative? If Bob the wizard hides in mordenkainen's magnificent mansion to take a rest and scry out the opposition (a common tactic I see in this type of discussion) then I'm going to add something into what he sees that entices him to act sooner as part of that scrying that makes sense within the context of the adventure.

That's a very debatable point. Many play that long rests and short rests are more mutually exclusive.

It's not. The definition of a short rest is a period of downtime at least 1 hour long. The definition of a long rest is a period of downtime at least 8 hours long. Both have restrictions on activity with the long rest being more stringent.

Periods of downtime are very much what DM's provide. There aren't different types of downtime and there's no way for characters to have downtime that qualifies as a long rest that doesn't also qualify as a short rest about 20 hours sooner based on the 5MWD presumption.

Making those mutually exclusive is house-ruling. By the time a long rest would be completed several short rests and a lot of adventure can continue.

Those definitions are on page 186 of the PHB.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I pointed out that all classes use a daily mechanic because that's tied to hit point and hit dice recovery. What classes don't have hit dice and hit points?

That's kinda the point, really: every class has HD, in exactly the same proportion to their hps. It's not a meaningful distinction among classes that factors into class balance, the way spell slots or rage are.

It does eventually become a hard limiter on nominally at-will combat abilities, though.

by not throwing that out too much and giving the advantage to different classes and different times gives them their moments to shine. The key is varying it just enough to give everyone their solid experiences.

That's the theory behind 6-8, rather than exactly 7, perhaps. Or if it's meant to be an average among greater extremes, we're to contrive an 11-15 encounter day for each 5MWD? Will everyone's HD keep them going that long?

Deciding the character can just nova, rest, recycle, and repeat because of the rest mechanism is clearly a metagamist approach because it's deliberately attempting to leverage a game mechanic instead of roleplaying.

Except 'resting' isn't metagame, at all - In fact a leading criticism of the 13A (partial) fix (and thus FrogReaver's more nuanced one) is that it /is/ metagame.

 

[Lanefan]

Any adventure where you are relatively close to the long rest site.

One example: a city adventure with tunnels owned by different factions under the city. Fairly easy to just go rest in the city at any given point.

Another example: exploring a dungeon that's within 24 hours of a long rest site.

All of these kinds of scenarios still suffer the same exact 5MWD abuse present in the original system - albeit with a little more time to allow fictional events to naturally unfold.

And realistically there's not much you can do about this in any case; if a party are in a situation where they can be true "weekend warriors" and get a good rest every night or two, then good for them. Let 'em do it for the duration of that adventure - it won't last forever* - and then move on to something else that's farther away from town.

* - unless you're running Runis of Undermountain and the rest site is Waterdeep; in which case it will last forever, but you already knew that when you decided to run it...right?

3 levels of axhaustion is a pretty big deal.

My Dwarf thanks you for his new favourite word.

 

[Maxperson]

* - unless you're running Runis of Undermountain and the rest site is Waterdeep; in which case it will last forever, but you already knew that when you decided to run it...right?

Unless they changed it for 5e, it's really easy to get lost in Undermountain. One way secret doors, traps, portals, etc.