Solving the 5MWD

I had an interesting idea and wanted to share and hammer out some of the details.

1. Tie ability recharges to level up. For example spell slots only recharge on level up. Obviously the number of slots needs increased but that should be doable.
2. Keep healing and hit die mechanics tied to resting - potentially also slow the rate at which you heal through resting.

Does this solve the 5MWD issue? Are there any foreseeable issues with this setup? Would it be more fun to play this way?
 
Y'know, in a sense, it's un-solving.

Because, in that sense, the resource-management nano-strategy-sub-meta-game is a "solved game," like tic-tac-toe: the 5MWD is the resultant "correct" play.

But that's just a philosophical aside, fatuous, really.

I had an interesting idea and wanted to share and hammer out some of the details.

1. Tie ability recharges to level up. For example spell slots only recharge on level up. Obviously the number of slots needs increased but that should be doable.
Since level up is tied to XP, and XP to number and difficulty of encounters, that's a variation on the 13th Age solution of the "full heal up" after every 4th encounter. That certainly works, so this should work, in principle.

Complicating it, more resources over a larger number of encounters will both give greater flexibility to resource-heavy classes, and make most encounters feel even "easier."

I suppose there's also some room to 'game' it, by seeking other, or less resource-intensive sources of XP.

2. Keep healing and hit die mechanics tied to resting - potentially also slow the rate at which you heal through resting.
And that further complicated it, but in a good way - by making healing available on a different schedule, it's at least possible for at-will abilities to see a LOT of use, without being held back by the need to heal, and thus recharge everything else, as well.
 

cbwjm

I can add a custom title.
Sounds terrible and decidedly not fun, I would not enjoy this unless it was determined beforehand that we would be levelling up after each adventure. Even then, the adventures would have to be really constrained, a long drawn out quest that eroded all of our spells and abilities so that we had nothing towards the end would feel like a hell of a slog.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
I had an interesting idea and wanted to share and hammer out some of the details.

1. Tie ability recharges to level up. For example spell slots only recharge on level up. Obviously the number of slots needs increased but that should be doable.
This would nerf casters to the point of complete uselessness in my game, where level-up is a rare and wondrous thing. :)

More generally, it really plays against any attempt to slow down the overall level-advance rate and thus prolong one's campaign; so count me as opposed to this one on principle.

It also penalizes higher-level characters in a mixed-level party, as they won't be advancing as often.
 

Shiroiken

Adventurer
Expect your party to primarily consist of Fighters, Monks, Rogues, and Warlocks, since their abilities would still recharge on a short rest. Full Casters would be almost non-existent, except maybe the Moon Druid, since just about all of their abilities are tied to long rest. Barbarians, Paladins, and Rangers might see some play, but they'll be greatly weakened.

Something else to consider, is that you should not use XP with this. You need to have a standardized setup, such as milestone or session leveling, in order to make this work. Otherwise, if the party begins to fail, they won't have the resources to continue, and can't ever get enough xp to recover their abilities. This death spiral will destroy the campaign, causing you to have to relent or just give them an undeserved level to keep it going.
 
Expect your party to primarily consist of Fighters, Monks, Rogues, and Warlocks, since their abilities would still recharge on a short rest. Full Casters would be almost non-existent, except maybe the Moon Druid, since just about all of their abilities are tied to long rest. Barbarians, Paladins, and Rangers might see some play, but they'll be greatly weakened.

Something else to consider, is that you should not use XP with this. You need to have a standardized setup, such as milestone or session leveling, in order to make this work. Otherwise, if the party begins to fail, they won't have the resources to continue, and can't ever get enough xp to recover their abilities. This death spiral will destroy the campaign, causing you to have to relent or just give them an undeserved level to keep it going.
Short rest abilities would work the same way I described.

If the party begins to fail they can still rereat and get their hp back. They will just have to come up with a plan that doesn't involve going head first at the current enemy - or finding some NPC's to help them - or they die/retire and bring in new PC's and get their sweet revenge - lots of other possibilities.
 
Sounds terrible and decidedly not fun, I would not enjoy this unless it was determined beforehand that we would be levelling up after each adventure. Even then, the adventures would have to be really constrained, a long drawn out quest that eroded all of our spells and abilities so that we had nothing towards the end would feel like a hell of a slog.
Or alternatively you could pace your spells and have some left at the end?
 
This would nerf casters to the point of complete uselessness in my game, where level-up is a rare and wondrous thing. :)

More generally, it really plays against any attempt to slow down the overall level-advance rate and thus prolong one's campaign; so count me as opposed to this one on principle.

It also penalizes higher-level characters in a mixed-level party, as they won't be advancing as often.
Not sure what the first or 2nd means.

Good observation on the mixed level parties. My campaigns typically don't use them so I don't think about them.
 
Something else to consider, is that you should not use XP with this. You need to have a standardized setup, such as milestone or session leveling, in order to make this work. Otherwise, if the party begins to fail, they won't have the resources to continue, and can't ever get enough xp to recover their abilities. This death spiral will destroy the campaign, causing you to have to relent or just give them an undeserved level to keep it going.
God forbid we actually push characters to the point of having to use at-will abilities - Something that every single balance point between long rest classes and at-will classes assumes is built in. Yea we certainly can't let that happen. TIC of course ;)
 
Since level up is tied to XP, and XP to number and difficulty of encounters, that's a variation on the 13th Age solution of the "full heal up" after every 4th encounter. That certainly works, so this should work, in principle.

Complicating it, more resources over a larger number of encounters will both give greater flexibility to resource-heavy classes, and make most encounters feel even "easier."
I can't imagine it feeling easier than the ability to recharge all your parties abilities nearly any time you want.

And yes, this was somewhat inspired by the 13th age solution - except I dislike the arbitrariness of getting abilities back after X encounters - which is why I proposed to tie it to something with some sort of fictional meaning. In this case the level up. However, the basic premise would also allow you to do it at every .5 level or really any fraction of a level you desire.

I suppose there's also some room to 'game' it, by seeking other, or less resource-intensive sources of XP.
I think that might just be a feature ;)

And that further complicated it, but in a good way - by making healing available on a different schedule, it's at least possible for at-will abilities to see a LOT of use, without being held back by the need to heal, and thus recharge everything else, as well.
Yep! It also allows healing rates to be more finely adjusted to the DM's desire since they aren't directly tied to anything else. So now your 1 hp per night crowd can do their thing and the full hp overnight crowd can do there's and there will be much less difference in the overall challenge of any given adventure.
 

dnd4vr

Hero
I had an interesting idea and wanted to share and hammer out some of the details.

1. Tie ability recharges to level up. For example spell slots only recharge on level up. Obviously the number of slots needs increased but that should be doable.
2. Keep healing and hit die mechanics tied to resting - potentially also slow the rate at which you heal through resting.

Does this solve the 5MWD issue? Are there any foreseeable issues with this setup? Would it be more fun to play this way?
Ummm... what is the "5MWD issue" this is meant to solve?

(I know what 5MWD means, but not in the context of 5E DND.)
 
Ummm... what is the "5MWD issue" this is meant to solve?

(I know what 5MWD means, but not in the context of 5E DND.)
If you know what it means then are you seriously suggesting it's not possible to blow through most all your resources in a short span and rest and recharge them all?
 
I can't imagine it feeling easier than the ability to recharge all your parties abilities nearly any time you want.
Well, you do start with /even moar/ resources.
And yes, this was somewhat inspired by the 13th age solution - except I dislike the arbitrariness of getting abilities back after X encounters - which is why I proposed to tie it to something with some sort of fictional meaning. In this case the level up. However, the basic premise would also allow you to do it at every .5 level or really any fraction of a level you desire.
Is level-up any more in-fiction than level in the firts place?

But, it does fit the cadence of the game.

Another little oddity, though: advancement is slowest from 4-11.

Yep! It also allows healing rates to be more finely adjusted to the DM's desire since they aren't directly tied to anything else.
It does free up fictional pacing the way the 13A solution does, along one dimension, then let's you tune the damage/healing pacing as you like.
That kind of independent dynamic has potential.

BTW, the other extreme for a natural pacing point might be the session. Session = short rest.
 

5ekyu

Adventurer
Stepping away from the details, here is what I see this as.

5e has a "hest" design - thinking old school style tech - where you start with abilities to use and as you use them you gain an increasing problem that needs passive effort to clear. So, inactivity is needed to reload or refresh your abilities.

Thats "big picture" - obviously it's more complicated since z lot need long rests, some need short, dome keep going but are kinda middling.

What is being described here us actually more of an "ammo" approach where the keys to using your abilities are active efforts, getting CPU to level up.

But, really, frankly, resting is actually evdn more sn non-fiction thing than levrl up is, most of the time.

So, frankly, 5e is not built to work this way. In my opinion tho, an rpg could be abd it could be very unteresting.

Imagine if each PC was built with a few potent resource demanding abilities - a good number of frequent use passive recovery "rest" recharge abilities and a number of unlimited use abilities. Each class or race or background might provide each different ways to get the "fuel" or "Ammo" etc. Each ability might require different fuel.

Obviously, this puts the "recovery power" into the setting in actual action oriented means which also puts it into more GM vonttol, but it's done through a very clear in-game element- less malleable than resting, less meta than leveling.

Perhaps the dedign could put the "fuel" info in the sub-class.

But a game with a design of easy at-will performance at adventurer, limited byt frequent use at heroic outputs and the real top power stuff is one you need to hunt down and actively fuel would be very viable.

Its actually, if you look at it, not that different from many heroic myths and styles ehere the strong hero does good agsinst minions, gets pushed aside by powerful big bad then hunts for added umphh (items, training, weakness into, rtc) to come back and drop the baddie.

So, yo me, switching from long rest to leveling for reload is possibly a step in the direction, but on the wrong road. It should aim at providing an in-game non-meta resource.

That ssid, I dont see the 5mwd as an issue. As GM I provide a mix of circumstances and demands so sometimes its short workdays, sometimes it's not and since it's not always evident which, it's not a problem.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Not sure what the first or 2nd means.
It means that if you only get your slots recharged when you level up, and you're playing in a campaign like mine where you only level up once every several dozen sessions, there'd no longer be any point whatsoever in playing a caster.
 

cbwjm

I can add a custom title.
Which might be fine at higher levels when you have plenty, lower levels when you only have a handful of spell slots, not so much. Are players really going to preserve their spell slots and just use cantrips if they have a couple of tough fights? Doubtful. Far more likely they'll get to the final encounter with few options, assuming the wizards and sorcerers even survive. Neither is going to waste a slot on mage armour, only an 8 hour duration when you won't see that slot until you level? Forget that.

You can probably forget about them using utility spells as well. I'd be focusing on using skills rather than magic to overcome anything. Hope the rogue manages to climb that sheer surface and drop down a rope because I'm not wasting a slot on levitate. No divinations either, why waste a slot on them when investigation will do.

Sorcery points, rages, bardic inspiration for the first few levels, none of these will be coming back either. Players will likely hold on to them in much the same way people playing video games hoard potions "just in case".

I just think the whole idea is pretty much a terrible one and I would not want to play and extended campaign like this I don't think it would be fun at all.
 

Horwath

Explorer
5MWD is a problem, but this could make it worse.

I would rather rework all spells/spellcasters to work on short rest than this.
 

dave2008

Hero
You can probably forget about them using utility spells as well. I'd be focusing on using skills rather than magic to overcome anything. Hope the rogue manages to climb that sheer surface and drop down a rope because I'm not wasting a slot on levitate. No divinations either, why waste a slot on them when investigation will do.
Well now your selling it. Making magic more precious seems like a bonus to me.
 

Oofta

Title? I don't need no stinkin' title.
I solved it by not allowing 5mwds. It's not hard, just use the optional rule from the DMG where a short rest is overnight and a long rest is a week or more. If the party wants to accomplish anything they can't just take a week off. Done.

You don't even have to do that of course. If you're in hostile territory you can't get a long rest. Try to retreat back to town and come back to the dungeon after you're all rested up? They know you're coming and it's now twice as difficult to loot the tomb as it was before if not impossible. Not in a dungeon but trying to stop the duke from being assassinate? Well, sorry but while you were resting the bad guys killed the duke and got away. Better luck next time.

There are a lot of ways of dealing with it with pacing and minor tweaks, no rule changes needed.

But to answer your questions more directly: it depends on how often you level up, for me it would change the dynamic of the stories I tell where people level up when it makes sense not when I've drained them of resources. No, I do not think it would not be more fun.
 

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