D&D 5E ludonarrative dissonance of hitpoints in D&D

[FrogReaver]

the point was that how "wordy as humanly possibly" can be is subjective, im as wordy as necessary no more no less, id like you to prove otherwise.

Everyone here agrees that you are way more wordy than necessary.

 

[Arch-Fiend]

Everyone here agrees that you are way more wordy than necessary.

ill let them speak for themselves, at least one of us has to

 

[The Crimson Binome]

the point was that how "wordy as humanly possibly" can be is subjective, im as wordy as necessary no more no less, id like you to prove otherwise.

Don't worry. You're nowhere near the limit. I'm fairly confident that I could use more words in order to say less, if I had more free time on my hands.

Honestly though, given the point you're trying to get across, I'm not sure that any amount of words would be sufficient to make some people understand. Some people are just resistant to common sense, no matter how thoroughly you try to explain it.

 

[Arch-Fiend]

Don't worry. You're nowhere near the limit. I'm fairly confident that I could use more words in order to say less, if I had more free time on my hands.

Honestly though, given the point you're trying to get across, I'm not sure that any amount of words would be sufficient to make some people understand. Some people are just resistant to common sense, no matter how thoroughly you try to explain it.

be as it may i respect the intelligence of anonymous people on the internet to give them as much respect as they give me, ovinomancer has responded to me each time with a pretty wordy retort and thus he gets one in kind. i assume hes trying to understand me, but i assume the best usually until people begin to speak for other people in the presence of those people they are speaking for.

besides its a fun experience to test my ability to explain the same thing 20 times with further and further deconstruction in order to present its pieces in a way that more clearly expresses how those pieces of my argument fit together.

or do it for a definition of a word that im fairly sure isn't a common use term. but at this point i think i must have broken it down far enough to show that i do actually know how what that word means and how it relates to the topic. if anyone still thinks i dont know what an abstraction is at this point and how its used in the game then im really going to have to think hard about how they could possibly misunderstand.

maybe its because i dont capitalize

 

[Manbearcat]

@pemerton , @Ovinomancer , and @Arch-Fiend

I haven't fully read these exchanges, but here is some very brief input.

My take on HP is that the issues arise (for those that they do arise; eg not me) because they are both an (1) abstraction and also a (2) synthesis of interrelated systems (as in musculoskeletal, circulatory, and endocrine) combined with downstream interactions (how does neurological state a lead to morale b after events x, y, z?).

In a lot of D&D, the mechanic of HP is expected to do the heavy lifting for all of this (not even Dungeon World does this; disabilities does the heavy lifting for acute conditions).

 

[Tony Vargas]

@pemerton , @Ovinomancer , and @Arch-Fiend
I haven't fully read these exchanges, but here is some very brief input.
My take on HP is that the issues arise because they are both an (1) abstraction and also a (2) synthesis of interrelated systems combined with downstream interactions.

(3) must be meat if you're going to whinge about the Warlord "shouting hands back on!"

 

[Arch-Fiend]

I haven't fully read these exchanges, but here is some very brief input.

My take on HP is that the issues arise (for those that they do arise; eg not me) because they are both an (1) abstraction and also a (2) synthesis of interrelated systems (as in musculoskeletal, circulatory, and endocrine) combined with downstream interactions (how does neurological state a lead to morale b after events x, y, z?).

In a lot of D&D, the mechanic of HP is expected to do the heavy lifting for all of this (not even Dungeon World does this; disabilities does the heavy lifting for acute conditions).

which issues?

 

[pemerton]

@pemerton , @Ovinomancer , and @Arch-Fiend

I haven't fully read these exchanges, but here is some very brief input.

My take on HP is that the issues arise (for those that they do arise; eg not me) because they are both an (1) abstraction and also a (2) synthesis of interrelated systems (as in musculoskeletal, circulatory, and endocrine) combined with downstream interactions (how does neurological state a lead to morale b after events x, y, z?).

In a lot of D&D, the mechanic of HP is expected to do the heavy lifting for all of this (not even Dungeon World does this; disabilities does the heavy lifting for acute conditions).

This is - for me, at least - one of the strengths of 4e: its heavy reliance on positionng and condition-infliction helps pick up some of that heavy lifting you refer to.

By way of contrast, the sparseness of B/X and AD&D combat resolution - which was the D&D I was familiar with throughout the 80s - made me ripe for assimilation by Rolemaster when first encountered it in 1990.

 

[Manbearcat]

which issues?

The aspects of play you outlined in your Conclusions section:

There are both (a) multiple means of preventing HP ablation (Saving Throws to avoid morale/psychic damage, Saving Throws to avoid fatigue damage, Reaction abilities to mitigate damage, the amalgamation of mitigation/deftness to avoid damage), (b) those HPs representing often loosely interrelated systems (sometimes nearly discrete), (c) how the fictional positioning inherent to restoring those HPs (particularly as it relates to 3rd parties and their conception of the situation) interacts with (a) and (b).

Again, I don't have these issues in the slightest. I'm quite happy with D&D hit points and feel that, overwhelmingly, narrative dissonance in play can be resolved via table consensus and acceptance of the fortune in the middle machinery of D&D systems.

 

[Manbearcat]

This is - for me, at least - one of the strengths of 4e: its heavy reliance on positionng and condition-infliction helps pick up some of that heavy lifting you refer to.

By way of contrast, the sparseness of B/X and AD&D combat resolution - which was the D&D I was familiar with throughout the 80s - made me ripe for assimilation by Rolemaster when first encountered it in 1990.

Yup.

I, as you know, agree.

I would also add that it injects (demands really) narrative dynamism in that it broadens the prospects of outcomes (rather than contracts them). In the course of that, you get a requirement of proactive participants (all of them) and a cognitive workspace (both collectively and individually) that you wouldn't have otherwise.