OD&D Evidence Chainmail Had Material from Dave Arneson

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Yaarel

He Mage
@Rob Kuntz

So, the Arneson group only used Chainmail for a single month?

It seems, then, Gygax exaggerated the significance of Chainmail, in order to exaggerate his own role in the formative phase of D&D.

The evidence shows the Arneson group is who decides what D&D is or isnt.



In any case, the question I find most interesting is what did the ‘fantasy’ ‘wargaming’ of the Arneson group look like before Chainmail.
 

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@Rob Kuntz

So, the Arneson group only used Chainmail for a single month?

It seems, then, Gygax exaggerated the significance of Chainmail, in order to exaggerate his own role in the formative phase of D&D.

The evidence shows the Arneson group is who decides what D&D is or isnt.



In any case, the question I find most interesting is what did the ‘fantasy’ ‘wargaming’ of the Arneson group look like before Chainmail.

Well, the combat matrix was discarded for hp and such; and the monsters were expanded as Dave notes; and as the OP has pointed out the magic swords were introduced, of which we found one in that showcase adventure by the two Daves in November of 1972. It had wishes on it and we used one in the outdoor segment of that showcase game to make a group of ogres fight themselves.

There are a lot of influences going on, of course, but as I maintain, no direct lineage. There is no historical antecedent to what we now call a RPG (though we first termed it FRP for Fantasy Role Playing) and Dave's group never typed it at all--just called it Dave's Blackmoor (county-wide) game. Even calling it a Braunstein-type game is misleading, for by the time Arneson moves to full fledged RP and Dungeon Crawls, hit points and such he's created game design gulfs the size of the Grand Canyon when compared to either Braunstein or Chainmail.
 

mwittig

Explorer
I did not enter this thread to opine on your thesis, but just to explain why PatW said what it did (though I have apparently broadened that to include whether the "Northern Marches" piece changed my thinking).
I’m a little surprised--I thought you’d be very interested in the analysis. Based on it, I suspect Arneson sent a letter to Gygax that included earlier versions of Chainmail’s creature descriptions, Fantasy Reference Table, and Fantasy Combat table, (all taken from Arneson's Blackmoor campaign), likely along with a copy of Leonard Patt’s “Rules for Middle Earth” (as both Arneson and Gygax clearly drew from it according to the analysis above). I remember you mentioning that you had gotten hold of 90 letters between Arneson and Gygax since writing Playing at the World, too bad it wasn’t in there with the other letters.

Regarding Sir Jenkins and when he gained his honorifics, PatW here followed FFC pg25 (i.e. DB#13). I do agree that the "Northern Marches" description of "Sir Jenkins" leaves us with a question there, especially because, as you rightly point out, the map of the "Northern Marches" is obviously a direct precursor to the later Blackmoor map.
Precursor? The map included with the letter and the map of Blackmoor in The First Fantasy Campaign look nearly identical to me:
1574296928663.jpeg


But at the same time... I'm not sure the rest of the description of the Northern Marches seems to match up with the Blackmoor story we find in DB#13. It seems to me like it's no accident that all of the individuals mentioned in the Northern Marches description happen to be C&CS members. But Dave Fant, who gets a lot airtime in DB#13 but was not a C&CS member, isn't mentioned in the Northern Marches. And although DB#13 mentions Jenkins in connection with the "Northern most march," it sounds like it's talking about a place separate from Blackmoor. And well, the name "Blackmoor" is conspicuously missing from the "Northern Marches" description.
Note that the “Northern most march” is listed as being part of Blackmoor in The First Fantasy Campaign/Domesday Book #13, “on the actual frontier with the Egg of Coot” (which has a location marked on the map of Blackmoor included with the FFC).
1574296946959.jpeg


Maybe what we're looking at here is a continuity shift: there was some vision of the Northern Marches campaign before they played the thing DB#13 calls the "First Coot invasion", something specific to C&CS membership, and then there was some kind of reset, which apparently involved a broader cast of characters and a slightly shifted setting. But, you know, they kept the map.
Sir Jenkins, a well-known Blackmoor character, complete with his honorific "Sir" title gained during the first Coot invasion in Blackmoor, is mentioned in the letter as ruling a portion of the map of Blackmoor included with the letter. Its hard to see the letter as describing something other than Blackmoor. Additionally, Arneson said that “Blackmoor has always been my only setting," so it is of no surprise that what we read about in the letter and what we see on the map matches Blackmoor.
And that is kind of my point about the shift from the "Great Kingdom" to "Blackmoor." When I wrote PatW I had the sense that there was some kind of C&CS "Great Kingdom" campaign plan, and that when the "medieval Braunstein" stuff started, things got a little different, and that was what we saw reflected in DB#13. I'm not sure the "Northern Marches" piece alone convinces me otherwise.
Gygax, Kuntz, and Arneson have all given no indication that the Great Kingdom was ever viable as a game campaign:
Gygax (in 1977): “we planned to sponsor campaign-type gaming at some point.”
Kuntz: “It was not considered a setting, but a realm that was expanding for societal purposes and thereby had no strict gaming potential.”
Arneson: “The Society set up a mythical map where ‘kingdoms’ were assigned to the ‘lords’ of the Society and a society-wide campaign, using medievals was proposed, which never got anywhere.”

What preceded the so-called “’medieval Braunstein’ and ‘the Black Moors’ in that April-May 1971 period” was not a Great Kingdom campaign. Rather, the games in April and May were simply the first Blackmoor games that were announced in Corner of the Table—but there were many other games that preceded them. Svenson’s “First Dungeon Adventure” describes one game that took place during the Christmas 1970-71 holiday, but as Svenson noted in his story, even that game was not the first Blackmoor game. Blackmoor seems to have started in 1970, months prior to the publication of Chainmail and the Fantasy Supplement—so the result of the analysis that Arneson must have sent material from Blackmoor to Gygax and that it ended up in the Fantasy Supplement seems to make sense from a timeline standpoint.
 

Yaarel

He Mage
The Foreward by Gygax, in Original D&D Men & Magic, corroborates the following timeline.

1. The Castle & Crusade Society published rules for ‘fantasy wargaming’.
2. Dave Arneson used a version of these rules for his new ‘medieval fantasy campaign’, set in Blackmoor.
3. LATER, Arneson playtested the Chainmail game (for 1 month), designed by Gygax.
4. Arneson and his group (not Gygax) developed a ‘far more complex game’ for medieval fantasy.
5. MUCH LATER, ‘in due course’, Gygax becomes aware of Arneson and his Blackmoor campaign group.
6. Gygax and Arneson meet for the first time.
7. Original D&D is the ‘result’ of the Blackmoor campaign of the Arneson group.
7a. (The Arneson group decides what they like and what they dont like − what will become OD&D.)
7b. (OD&D publishes the stuff the Arneson group likes.)

At stage 2 in the timeline, some formative version of the Blackmoor campaign is already in play before Arneson playtested Chainmail



"
ONCE UPON A TIME, long, long ago
there was a little group known as the Castle and Crusade Society.
Their fantasy rules were published,
and to this writer's knowledge,
brought about much of the current interest in fantasy wargaming.

For a time the group grew and prospered,
and Dave Arneson decided to begin a medieval fantasy campaign game for his active Twin Cities club.

From the map of the "land" of the "Great Kingdom" and environs — the territory of the C & C Society —
Dave located a nice bog wherein to nest the weird enclave of "Blackmoor",
a spot between the "Great Kingdom" and the fearsome "Egg of Coot".

From the CHAINMAIL fantasy rules he drew ideas for a far more complex and exciting game,

and thus began a campaign which still thrives as of this writing!

In due course the news reached my ears,

and the result is what you have in your hands at this moment.

"
 
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1. The Castle & Crusade Society published rules for ‘fantasy wargaming’.

Not what he stated. Lowry published these. His was a stand-alone sentence.

2. Dave Arneson used a version of these rules for his new ‘medieval fantasy campaign’, set in Blackmoor.

3. LATER, Arneson playtested the Chainmail game (for 1 month), designed by Gygax

Hmm. Versions of these for the Medieval part of Chainmail were already in circulation prior to Lowry's first printing, so Arneson may have been using the Medieval rules only prior to the Fantasy rules addition.

4. Arneson and his group (not Gygax) developed a ‘far more complex game’ for medieval fantasy.

5. MUCH LATER, ‘in due course’, Gygax becomes aware of Arneson and his Blackmoor campaign group.

Gary was aware from the onset of the GK map that Arneson had a campaign set in a swamp as part of the CS&C Society. This does not mean that it started with that intention and did not exist in some form prior to that.

6. Gygax and Arneson meet for the first time.

Gary meets Arneson 1989 Gencon II; Arneson "recalls" Gencon 3 as that meeting (1970). I recall meeting Arneson at Gencon ii (my first Gencon),

I publish Dave's FaB in DB#13 June 1972; Arneson showcases our first experience in the BM environs (Village adventure, Castle Adventure and Outdoor Adventure, al in one sitting) November 1972

7. Original D&D is the ‘result’ of the Blackmoor campaign of the Arneson group.

Gary referred to it as a prototype, but D&D is actually the 1st iteration of Blackmoor.

7a. (The Arneson group decides what they like and what they dont like − what will become OD&D.)

Not true. Gary added his preferred mechanics though the conflict at sea and air combat rules by Dave were sent to Gary and used in part; there are other parts that Dave submitted that were changed or inverted as well and of which the OP has more knowledge of than myself. What remains unchanged is Arneson's systems architecture, as it must, or else it would NOT function as he had designed it to function.

7b. (OD&D publishes the stuff the Arneson group likes.)

(see above)
 
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[QUOTE="lowkey13, post: 7857906, member: 6799753"

It was a pleasure to have @increment join us, but I can certainly sympathize when he wrote "I did not enter this thread to opine on your thesis{.}" It is not productive or enjoyable to either opine, or even offer help, when you understand what is going on.
[/QUOTE]

As well I was referring to Zenopus in his note about Conan stories. I support all ongoing research no matter how it may end and have no dog in this race. In fact I find it somewhat, and in some ways, useless; and that is because of my own discoveries which make everything preceding Arneson's leap to a totally new system superfluous by comparison.
 

Hriston

Dungeon Master of Middle-earth
I’m far from knowledgeable about these matters, but it seems to me that something that is being glossed over in this discussion (or perhaps I’ve missed it) is the distinction between Chainmail (1971) in its complete published form with the Fantasy Supplement and its many earlier iterations, including the “Geneva Medieval Rules” published in Panzerfaust (Vol. 5, No. 1), and the expanded version published simultaneously in the Spartan International Monthly (August, 1970) and DB #5 and subsequent issues. None of these had any content resembling the Fantasy Supplement, and considering that Gygax met Arneson at Gen Con II in August, 1969, it’s at least conceivable that his many mentions of using “Chainmail” for early sessions of Blackmoor were in reference to the pre-Fantasy Supplement versions of Chainmail.
 


Hriston

Dungeon Master of Middle-earth
Only if you ignore what he actually said.*

See, e.g., the quote above.

(If it's not clear, the above quote references the fantasy supplement, and talks about expanding past "the matrix;" this is the well-known example of how Arneson went past the fantasy combat table, aka the matrix, from Chainmail).
This is the sort of glossing over I was talking about. At the top of that quote, Arneson seems to speak of Chainmail’s “Matrix based combat system” holistically. The Fantasy Combat Table is by no means the only combat matrix in Chainmail, and it’s quite possible he’s talking about the Man-to-Man tables or even the mass combat tables. They can all be characterized as “winner take all”. Speaking as if the Fantasy Combat Table is the only matrix in Chainmail assumes a lack of familiarity with the material in your audience.
 

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