D&D 5E Loremaster wizard (energy type change and +2d10 per target for extra level 1 spell slot) + magic missile. I dont think this is broken do you?

[Son of the Serpent]

Comparing to fire ball and considering what MM's role traditionally has been and what fire ball's traditional role has been i honestly dont think this is at all broken. Also it only outruns fireball's dps when you consider the two are being used against enemy parties and not an individual (this is reasonable) at 9th level. Not a level sooner. This assumes enemy party average size is approximately 4. Again. Reasonable. This is also the default fireball assuming saves are made exactly half the time. Most likely enemy saves will fail slightly more often than they win though because its dex against caster's primary stat. If we assume evocation mage or sorceror (with metamagic voodoo) then it never catches up. Further, the wizard can do this a max of 4 times a day before needing a long rest. That fireball is gonna be wayyyyyy stronger an option considering all this, but not for loremaster. Becausenow the 2d10 doesnt multiply by die count.

 

[Dausuul]

For anyone confused about the context, this is in reference to an old Unearthed Arcana: https://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/20170213_wizrd_wrlck_uav2_i48nf.pdf

The Loremaster wizard tradition in that article can change the energy type of a damaging spell, and they can expend a 1st-level spell slot to boost the damage of the spell by 2d10.

I'm not sure what the comparison to fireball has to do with anything. 1st-level spells scaled up to 3rd are not nearly as powerful as "native" 3rd-level spells, and that is by design. The most logical comparison is to say "What if you cast two 1st-level spells in succession, versus a boosted 1st-level spell followed by a cantrip?" It's the same expenditure of resources (two 1st-level spell slots, two actions).

Now, the official ruling on magic missile is that you make one damage roll and each missile does that much damage. This means a boosted magic missile averages 43.5 damage, which is utterly insane and indefensible. Junk that ruling and apply the boost to just one of the missiles like a reasonable DM, and you get a total of 21.5.

Two regular magic missiles: Average damage 21 (10.5 per casting)
One fire bolt plus one boosted magic missile: Average damage 21.5 (boosted magic missile) plus 3.6 (fire bolt average damage, assuming a 65% chance to hit) = 25.1

So, it's about a 20% boost in damage for the same resource expenditure*, which is pretty nice but not ludicrous. It doesn't get ludicrous until you start boosting your fireballs.

*A little better than that, actually, because you get to front-load most of your damage into the first round. If the extra damage kills your target on round 1, they don't get to attack you on round 2. However, it's very hard to estimate the impact of this benefit.

 

[Son of the Serpent]

For anyone confused about the context, this is in reference to an old Unearthed Arcana: https://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/20170213_wizrd_wrlck_uav2_i48nf.pdf

The Loremaster wizard tradition in that article can change the energy type of a damaging spell, and they can expend a 1st-level spell slot to boost the damage of the spell by 2d10.

I'm not sure what the comparison to fireball has to do with anything. 1st-level spells scaled up to 3rd are not nearly as powerful as "native" 3rd-level spells, and that is by design. The most logical comparison is to say "What if you cast two 1st-level spells in succession, versus a boosted 1st-level spell followed by a cantrip?" It's the same expenditure of resources (two 1st-level spell slots, two actions).

Now, the official ruling on magic missile is that you make one damage roll and each missile does that much damage. This means a boosted magic missile averages 43.5 damage, which is utterly insane and indefensible. Junk that ruling and apply the boost to just one of the missiles like a reasonable DM, and you get a total of 21.5.

Two regular magic missiles: Average damage 21 (10.5 per casting)
One fire bolt plus one boosted magic missile: Average damage 21.5 (boosted magic missile) plus 3.6 (fire bolt average damage, assuming a 65% chance to hit) = 25.1

So, it's about a 20% boost in damage for the same resource expenditure*, which is pretty nice but not ludicrous. It doesn't get ludicrous until you start boosting your fireballs.

*A little better than that, actually, because you get to front-load most of your damage into the first round. If the extra damage kills your target on round 1, they don't get to attack you on round 2. However, it's very hard to estimate the impact of this benefit.

I used fireball to compare because the tradition seems to replace fireball as the most damaging spell (for this tradition specifically) with magic missile. There are other traditions that give instead a good boost to fireball. So this tradition seems to use magic missile as a replacement mass damage spell. Sacrificing a little sledgehammering damage (throught most leveling) to gain a bit more of a battlefield scalpel effect. It can avoid hitting people easily. Also it requires an extra spell slot putting it closer to the slot value of fireball (especially seeing as it expends two different slots which is a major price for a wizard as wizards have to expend slots carefully)

I meant to state the reason i compared the two but forgot.

 

[Son of the Serpent]

For anyone confused about the context, this is in reference to an old Unearthed Arcana: https://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/20170213_wizrd_wrlck_uav2_i48nf.pdf

The Loremaster wizard tradition in that article can change the energy type of a damaging spell, and they can expend a 1st-level spell slot to boost the damage of the spell by 2d10.

I'm not sure what the comparison to fireball has to do with anything. 1st-level spells scaled up to 3rd are not nearly as powerful as "native" 3rd-level spells, and that is by design. The most logical comparison is to say "What if you cast two 1st-level spells in succession, versus a boosted 1st-level spell followed by a cantrip?" It's the same expenditure of resources (two 1st-level spell slots, two actions).

Now, the official ruling on magic missile is that you make one damage roll and each missile does that much damage. This means a boosted magic missile averages 43.5 damage, which is utterly insane and indefensible. Junk that ruling and apply the boost to just one of the missiles like a reasonable DM, and you get a total of 21.5.

Two regular magic missiles: Average damage 21 (10.5 per casting)
One fire bolt plus one boosted magic missile: Average damage 21.5 (boosted magic missile) plus 3.6 (fire bolt average damage, assuming a 65% chance to hit) = 25.1

So, it's about a 20% boost in damage for the same resource expenditure*, which is pretty nice but not ludicrous. It doesn't get ludicrous until you start boosting your fireballs.

*A little better than that, actually, because you get to front-load most of your damage into the first round. If the extra damage kills your target on round 1, they don't get to attack you on round 2. However, it's very hard to estimate the impact of this benefit.

I dont think you technically CAN boost the fireball spell in this way. As the damage applies to targets and fireball has no targets. I dont think it applies to AOEs.

Furthermore fireball outruns loremaster's magic missile until 9th level (even when its just a base fireball cast at a given level). Alter the fireball in literally any way at all and magic missile never comes close to catching up.

Further, magic missile is already supposed to be one if the best multi target spells to alter or upcadt in the game and traditionally has always been. This doesnt seem abusive to me at all.

 

[Son of the Serpent]

Clarification:

Quote:
Because now the 2d10 doesnt multiply by die count.

Explanation:
I did say this line but only to point out a best case scenario. I dont even think it technically can be done.

 

[Dausuul]

I used fireball to compare because the tradition seems to replace fireball as the most damaging spell (for this tradition specifically) with magic missile.

Are you continuing a debate from somewhere else, with somebody who took this position? Because it's an odd position to take.

Lore Master offers a colossal enhancement to all of your damage spells. Boosting a fireball yields a 40% damage hike at the cost of a single 1st-level slot (plus you can change the damage type). That is crazy powerful. What magic missile does is beside the point.

I dont think you technically CAN boost the fireball spell in this way. As the damage applies to targets and fireball has no targets. I dont think it applies to AOEs.

Fireball certainly does have targets. Read the text of the spell. "A target takes 8d6 fire damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful save."

 

[Son of the Serpent]

Are you continuing a debate from somewhere else, with somebody who took this position? Because it's an odd position to take.

Lore Master offers a colossal enhancement to all of your damage spells. Boosting a fireball yields a 40% damage hike at the cost of a single 1st-level slot (plus you can change the damage type). That is crazy powerful. What magic missile does is beside the point.


Fireball certainly does have targets. Read the text of the spell. "A target takes 8d6 fire damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful save."

Huh...

Didnt think it did. I was under the impression that "target" had to be the distinct kind.

Ok.

But again, its not that great even in the best case scenario (which i guess is the correct interpretation) because it doesnt scale with individual base damage die and it very quickly becomes far less than a 40% hike. Magic missile really is a special case. Fireball doesnt get much of an increase from this considering there are much better options.

Also no. Not continuing it from elswhere.