D&D 2E Which is the better fantasy rpg and why: D&D 5e or Pathfinder 2e?

[Ruin Explorer]

The above post has gotten more likes then any other post here that I have ever made. More people then I expected agree with me on WotC's laziness problem or some other element then I expected.

I don't really agree with you re: "lazy" and "work ethic" as in implying WotC literally aren't putting effort in - I think they put a lot of effort in, but I do think they are overly cautious (especially re: adding content) and have proven to be rather shockingly hidebound about their approach to 5E, once they decided it. So I think the effort that would normally go on improving the game is rather being misdirected into more and more caution and narrow thinking and so on.

I mean, at the game I was playing in today, a bunch of people were using the new UA class option stuff, and really enjoying it, and if this was 3E or 4E or PF1/2, I'd expect them to take it live and for them to keep enjoying it. As it's 5E WotC, though, I fully expect almost all those abilities and options to be trashcanned within six months, because, as people have sometimes sadly accurately said of Blizzard "fun detected", and fun cannot be let to continue (it's true that people sometimes also say that of totally broken/OP stuff, but most often it really isn't).

I think the issue is in part that 5E is doing so well, and WotC have become rather irrationally terrified that they're going to somehow "break" that. They won't. They could release a half-dozen ridiculous sourcebooks in a row, and 5E would still keep selling great because the core game is great, and people want to play it. Equally though, when 5E does lose popularity, it won't likely be because of the products or lack of products even, it'll be because it is just that time, because there is some cultural shift. I think WotC need to embrace their time in the sun and make an edition which will be fondly remember for all the cool stuff it had in it, not one which has a legacy of limitation and pop-culture cash-ins.

Paizo, as the distinct underdog, are actually hungry, and know that the only way they're really going to sell PF2E is if it offers something exciting and distinctive, so are directing their effort more towards that. And that's certainly a lot more attractive, even if I have some doubts about PF2E as a system.

 

[Aldarc]

I agree. I guess I was thinking "If the same designers had got together with the idea at a different time", they might well have used a different system. Certainly I think it would work better for the goal mechanically, but there is something slightly subversive, in a very Blue Rose way, about using essentially d20-type rules for a very different flavour of game. If only the rules didn't have all that clunk! I've twice thought "I should run a Blue Rose campaign, I have a decent idea for this..." and then looked at the rulebook and gone "Ugh, don't really want to make the players go through dealing with that".

IME, Blue Rose AGE is easier and more new-player-friendly to run than Blue Rose T20. Also, the AGE Companion rulebook does offer some tweaks about some dials and knobs for the rule system. Regardless of the faults of the AGE System, it is exceedingly easy for new players to grasp. (But yeah, Blue Rose would have been great with PbtA-style playbooks and moves.)

 

[Azzy]

Except D&D, of course. D&D can seriously impact it's own market share. I know, you meant any other RPG, I'm just being pedantic, for the cheap laugh.

Let it go, Elsa, let it go.

 

[teitan]

D&D didn't have over 20 million players at that time.

When you say eventually, what kind of timeline are we talking about?

Eventually, maybe sooner than later, capitalism will collapse. And with it, the RPG market.

But that's not really what we're talking about.

We're talking about PF2 competing with 5e, not a different game. PF3 will be out before 5e's popularity has a chance of waning. And if 5e falls in popularity it won't be because of Pathfinder or any other RPG. It will be due to other factors.

See, I think you are feeling my comment is that P2 will overtake D&D again. I am not saying that. I am saying it will be a slow burn as the pocket editions finish out and more material come out more Pathfinder players will start to convert to the supported game and it will become a hit in that way. You keep implying I think it will overtake D&D while it has also been asserted that no other RPG could impact D&D's marketshare when it has happened twice and everyone always comes back to the "it can't happen" but it has. I am not saying it is going to be Pathfinder 2 that overtakes it, I am saying that as D&D 5e starts to dwindle that more people will move to other games and Paizo has a reputation for great products that will scoop up some of those players. It won't overtake D&D, hell when that happens we will probably see a refresh akin to AD&D 2e revised when sales start to show signs of he slippery slope and re-invigorate the game. But the common thread is that P2 is ranked 5000 on Amazon and how this is some sort of disaster for Paizo. It's not. Nowhere am I saying it will overtake D&D just that D&D will eventually reach market saturation and people will look for other games. It's a stupid argument unless WOTC screws the pooch but I think they've learned their lesson and have the backing of Hasbro to deliver quality. It's just how markets work. At one time Warner Bros was a juggernaut... now they have a hard time getting a hit that isn't "Batman".

 

[ad_hoc]

See, I think you are feeling my comment is that P2 will overtake D&D again. I am not saying that. I am saying it will be a slow burn as the pocket editions finish out and more material come out more Pathfinder players will start to convert to the supported game and it will become a hit in that way. You keep implying I think it will overtake D&D while it has also been asserted that no other RPG could impact D&D's marketshare when it has happened twice and everyone always comes back to the "it can't happen" but it has. I am not saying it is going to be Pathfinder 2 that overtakes it, I am saying that as D&D 5e starts to dwindle that more people will move to other games and Paizo has a reputation for great products that will scoop up some of those players. It won't overtake D&D, hell when that happens we will probably see a refresh akin to AD&D 2e revised when sales start to show signs of he slippery slope and re-invigorate the game. But the common thread is that P2 is ranked 5000 on Amazon and how this is some sort of disaster for Paizo. It's not. Nowhere am I saying it will overtake D&D just that D&D will eventually reach market saturation and people will look for other games. It's a stupid argument unless WOTC screws the pooch but I think they've learned their lesson and have the backing of Hasbro to deliver quality. It's just how markets work. At one time Warner Bros was a juggernaut... now they have a hard time getting a hit that isn't "Batman".

And I am saying that you're wrong.

The popularity of 5e is unprecedented. It didn't happen twice before in these circumstances because we have never been in these circumstances before. The previous height of D&D took 10 years to wane and 5e is much more popular than it was in the early 80s.

You refuse to state what kind of timeline you are talking about. You say that 5e will dwindle and PF2 will come up, but I think PF2 will burn out long before 5e does.

5e is not only still gaining in popularity, it is doing so at an increasingly rapid pace.

You're right that it will eventually dwindle, but not on the timeline that you're implying.

I also said that PF2 is successful, even at #5000 on Amazon. No one that I have read has said that PF2 isn't a successful game. It's just not in the same ballpark as D&D is and that's okay. PF2 will gain players from D&D, it's just that they are so few that D&D won't notice. There will be no noticeable impact.

I don't think you have a true concept of the numbers.

 

[teitan]

Again you think I am saying it’s going to overtake D&D and I didn’t say that. Eventually something will make some knocks. Nothing is invincible. Why do I need to present a timeline? I don’t cave to your demands especially when you are trying to imply I think P2 will overtake 5e. You are really stuck on that idea like fleas on a dog.

i don’t think you have a true grasp of the cycle of things. Eventually everything wanes But like you said there will always be D&D and it will be the benchmark by which everything sales. There was a time when people thought putting Harrison Ford in their movie was printing money and they were right... until they weren’t. It’s going to happen as people move on to the next big thing for entertainment. It’s not worth getting worked up over and demanding timelines like I’m some sort of psychic. Hell 3e was a great seller... until it wasn’t. It dominated a market like no other including 3pp supplements that were superior to WOTC offerings. we’ve seen it before. Heck man people used to love Bieber and think American Idol was always going to be the number 1 show too with their unprecedented popularity.

 

[Kurotowa]

Better at what? The two games offer different pros and cons, and different people will assign different values to those strong and weak points, which means everyone has a unique personal final score for the two.

D&D 5e is a simpler system. This makes it better for people who play casually, better for people who don't engage deeply with the rules, and better for people who just want to sit down to play once a week and not devote a lot of time to homework in between sessions. However, people who crave complexity and deep tactical engagement may find themselves craving more.

D&D 5e is the more traditionally D&D feeling game. For some people that's a major selling point. They've been playing D&D for years, if not decades. It's safe, familiar, comforting. Like a family house or a home cooked meal, even the little quirks have a nostalgia attached to them. They don't want to play the best reviewed fantasy RPG, they want to play Dungeons & Dragon.

Will some people enjoy PF2e more than D&D 5e? Certainly. Will everyone? Absolutely not. Is it easier to fit 5e to your group than to fit your group PF? I think so, which is why my group runs it. We'd have to replace a third of the players if we tried to jump to PF, and as we're friends first who game together because we're friends that's not really in the cards.

 

[Sacrosanct]

This morning I was listening to a football podcast (NFL, not soccer), and one of the guys started talking about what spells he’d learn for his warlock now that he hit level 3. And how he just started playing D&D and really liked it. And the other guys didn’t give him crap at all and had genuine banter.

This wasn’t some hole in the wall podcast either. It was ESPN. Main football analysts.

D&D has come a long way. So it gets my vote.

On a side note, speaking of quarterbacks (armchair quarterbacks in this case), I don’t think it’s fair to call any game designer lazy unless you’ve designed games and know what the process is. There’s a lot behind the scenes you probably don’t even realize. And I know you have no idea what the scope of their design process is.

 

[dave2008]

The above post has gotten more likes then any other post here that I have ever made. More people then I expected agree with me on WotC's laziness problem or some other element then I expected.

You are surprised that 11 people agree with you when there has been a ton of angst about the amount of content WotC has produced for 5e for about 3+ years on this forum? I'm surprised it is so few actually.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

You are surprised that 11 people agree with you when there has been a ton of angst about the amount of content WotC has produced for 5e for about 3+ years on this forum? I'm surprised it is so few actually.

Most people, whilst still wanting more of the stuff they like, are wise enough to understand than no one working for WotC is "lazy".