D&D General Level 1-20 and the gulf between aspirations and reality

[jasper]

You also forget the market is geared toward casual players and taste players. Casual players are not going to be upset they had to go homebrew to get to twenty. Tasters are players who come in play for a few months to about a year and move on to another hobby.

 

[Enrico Poli1]

Many of you missed the truly great High Level adventures:

• Age of Worms (1-21)
• Savage Tide (1-21)
• The Lich Queen's Beloved (18)
• Die Vecna Die (10-13)
• Dragon's Crown (Dark Sun, 10-13)
• Return to the Tomb of Horrors (13-16)
• Test of the Warlords, Death's Ride, Sabre River (BECMI 15+)

Give them a try, they're worth it.
You can always convert to 5e on the fly.

 

[Oofta]

I'm probably an outlier on this. I've played in a campaign that went to 20, and ran one that got that high as well. But I may be a bit of a masochist, I ran a 4E campaign to 30 (and played in another).

However, I've always run home-brew campaigns so maybe it's easier to keep going? I don't know. I think something that helps is that if I a new person starts the campaign they start the same level as everyone else and I'm very flexible with people swapping out PCs if they get tired of the one they were playing.

It does take a bit more work at higher levels, and it can be tough to come up with appropriate challenges. I end up creating a lot of custom monsters and NPCs.

 

[jayoungr]

I imagine that they included 20 levels because of sacred cows. Their actual design reflects that most people don't play to higher levels. I doubt they put much effort into designing the high level abilities either.

I wouldn't call it a "sacred cow" to allow for levels up to 20 but acknowledge that most people don't play past 10. It's just allowing for a wide range of options while being practical about the fact that most people won't make use of the full range.

Personally, I have run one campaign from level 1 to level 20. And I'm currently running another campaign that started at level 12.

 

[TwoSix]

It's absolutely aspirational. It's also tradition, which is pretty important for any release of D&D.

 

[abirdcall]

I wouldn't call it a "sacred cow" to allow for levels up to 20 but acknowledge that most people don't play past 10. It's just allowing for a wide range of options while being practical about the fact that most people won't make use of the full range.

Personally, I have run one campaign from level 1 to level 20. And I'm currently running another campaign that started at level 12.

You're in a small minority (not saying that you're playing wrong, just that the vast majority don't play to those levels).

Personally I think the game would be better if they didn't need to spend space, time, and balance considerations on the higher levels.

I don't think there would be 20 levels if there wasn't a tradition of it. 4e deviated a lot from traditions and they wanted to back track on that. It's funny though, because in much older editions the higher levels didn't mean much. Much of the time they were just hit points and there were a lot of level caps.

The whole 1-20 thing was really a 3e invention.

 

[Oofta]

You're in a small minority (not saying that you're playing wrong, just that the vast majority don't play to those levels).

Personally I think the game would be better if they didn't need to spend space, time, and balance considerations on the higher levels.

I don't think there would be 20 levels if there wasn't a tradition of it. 4e deviated a lot from traditions and they wanted to back track on that. It's funny though, because in much older editions the higher levels didn't mean much. Much of the time they were just hit points and there were a lot of level caps.

The whole 1-20 thing was really a 3e invention.

Did they really put that much effort into high level play? The majority of class themes is pretty well defined by, say, level 12 or so. A few extra abilities is hardly all that difficult. There are only a handful of monsters (mostly fiends) that get that high.

Probably the biggest cost was high level spells and even if PCs don't ever cast them there are powerful beings that can.

I'm not sure what the game would look like or if it would be that much different if it ended at 10th level so I don't see the point.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I don't think there would be 20 levels if there wasn't a tradition of it. 4e deviated a lot from traditions and they wanted to back track on that.

4e, of course, went to 30, and stayed mathematically functional and reasonably balanced (at least pre-E) throughout. I mean, yeah, that was a deviation from tradition, but not /away/ from presenting high level play, just towards daring to try to make it work.

It's funny though, because in much older editions the higher levels didn't mean much. Much of the time they were just hit points and there were a lot of level caps.

In the early TSR era and the fad years, yes, class designs were all over the place.
But, for instance, even the 1e fighter got a little something after 9th level, even if the main table just had an uninspiring '3hps' at each subsequent level, his attack matrix and saving throw matrix kept going to 16th, and at 13th(? or so) he got that coveted 2nd attack/round. And casters continued to get new spell levels and quite a few additional spells per day after 'name' level.

The whole 1-20 thing was really a 3e invention.

2e presented every class advancement table to level 20 (and not beyond, unlike 1e, where some capped lower, and a few tables when higher, and unlimited advancement was implied as a possibility).

 

[David Howery]

Many of you missed the truly great High Level adventures:

• Age of Worms (1-21)
• Savage Tide (1-21)
• The Lich Queen's Beloved (18)
• Die Vecna Die (10-13)
• Dragon's Crown (Dark Sun, 10-13)
• Return to the Tomb of Horrors (13-16)
• Test of the Warlords, Death's Ride, Sabre River (BECMI 15+)

Give them a try, they're worth it.
You can always convert to 5e on the fly.

well, if we're looking at older stuff... there's the GDQ series, Isle of the Ape, Nightmare Keep, and the whole Bloodstone series too....

 

[hawkeyefan]

The goal of my current 5E campaign is to get to level 20 and maybe a little after with some epic boons, and then wrap it up. But it's a campaign that has an incredibly slowed level progression....they PCs are currently 13th level and have completed Lost Mines, Curse of Strahd, Princes of the Apocalypse, Tomb of Annihilation, and a whole bunch of home brewed stuff.

I think if I went with XP as presented by the rules, they'd be like level 35 or something.