dave2008
Legend
Actually 5e does this in the DMG with the boons and alternate advancement past level 20. It recommends every 30,000 XP, but you could modify that however you want to speed up or slow down the pace.
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D&D General Level 1-20 and the gulf between aspirations and reality
- Thread starter Haffrung
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Lanefan
Victoria Rules
True - I was thinking more of a 2e-style set-up: fully open-ended and a level is still a level, but after a certain point it takes a very long time to earn one.
werecorpse
Adventurer
I think that wotc HAS recognised this and as such HAS NOT put much design effort into the levels after about level 10. The classes get fewer abilities after 10th level than before that point.
As stated above the effort/adventures/xp to get from level 11-14 is pretty small compared to the effort to get up to level 11. Imo this is to throw some endgame levels at the characters . The levels slow down a bit at level 14+ but a character is still advancing at a brisk pace at this point compared to levels 4-10
And finally as you have pointed out the adventures are rarely designed to continue much into the ‘teens’ levels.
So my theory is they know their main market is level 10 or below and that’s where they put in the design effort. Levels 11-20 get a bit of effort in the phb mostly so players can be aspirational and DMs can have an idea of high level spells & abilities for use by their big bads. Level 21+ gets a slight nod in the dmg so they can say they have taken that into account but there is little serious design effort put into it (what is it 2 pages with half a dozen options?).
Don’t get me wrong I like high level play (not as much as I like playing at levels 4-9 but probably more than I like playing at levels 1-3) but I just don’t think 5e high levels have anywhere near as much design effort from the manufacturer either from the players angle or the DMs.
Which imo is a pity because I thought with the use of bounded accuracy they may have made high level gaming more playable.
- Major spell casters get 4 extra spell slots over levels 11-17 and for several levels gain no extra spell slots.
- The number of high level spell options for some classes (ie cleric, druid, bard) is quite small.
- despite hit points continuing to increase damage for many high level spells tends to stop at 10d6 (compared to attaining 5th level and getting the ability to cast 2 fireballs, attaining 13th level and getting to cast 1 prismatic spray is underwhelming in comparison)
- the core character abilities tend to be acquired by characters in the early levels often the higher level abilities are lacklustre by comparison ie rage, multiattack, divine smite, etc
- the 3 item limit on magic items again limits characters getting multiple abilities which ime feels about right at level 7-10 (before that it doesn’t often matter) but by level 14+ begins to mean an adventurer can’t actively use the magic stuff they find OR the stuff they find is underwhelming & geared for lower levels assuming you don’t want to give out to many + to hit or Ac items which can mess with bounded accuracy.
As stated above the effort/adventures/xp to get from level 11-14 is pretty small compared to the effort to get up to level 11. Imo this is to throw some endgame levels at the characters . The levels slow down a bit at level 14+ but a character is still advancing at a brisk pace at this point compared to levels 4-10
And finally as you have pointed out the adventures are rarely designed to continue much into the ‘teens’ levels.
So my theory is they know their main market is level 10 or below and that’s where they put in the design effort. Levels 11-20 get a bit of effort in the phb mostly so players can be aspirational and DMs can have an idea of high level spells & abilities for use by their big bads. Level 21+ gets a slight nod in the dmg so they can say they have taken that into account but there is little serious design effort put into it (what is it 2 pages with half a dozen options?).
Don’t get me wrong I like high level play (not as much as I like playing at levels 4-9 but probably more than I like playing at levels 1-3) but I just don’t think 5e high levels have anywhere near as much design effort from the manufacturer either from the players angle or the DMs.
Which imo is a pity because I thought with the use of bounded accuracy they may have made high level gaming more playable.
Lanefan
Victoria Rules
How much effect does this damage cap have on dragging out high-level combats, I wonder.
That was certainly their stated intention; whether or not it's held up in practice is and remains an open question.
BUT - there's another reason, I think, that explains the higher popularity of low-to-mid level play even among seasoned veteran players and DMs: relatability.
It's far easier to relate to a low-level character, even as it advances into mid-levels and starts gaining some power. But at some point - a point which is different for everyone - the character becomes more like a superhero one would expect to find in a Marvel game and less like something they can relate with; and that's not what they signed up for nor is it what they remember from earlier play in the same game with the same character. And so interest wanes...
And sure, some of you are going to say that high-level superhero-style play is great, and is why you play the game; and that's cool. But I think you're vastly in the minority, and WotC realize this.
Tony Vargas
Legend
You think it's harder to relate to a world-class thief or mighty warrior atop a pile of dead enemies, than a humanoid turtle or dragon's great-grand-nephew who can shoot balls of fire out his nose?
Class & race have a lot more to do with relatability than level.
And, really, IMX, players show up to AL for the first time wanting to play a character out of genre that would be "too high level" if faithfully represented, and I have to explain that they can work up to that over time.
Yes, but it starts at level five. It's meant as a follow-up to Dragon Heist.
werecorpse
Adventurer
Well sure but the OP’s questions are premised on the fact that most games don’t go past level 10 and are:
“So why do publishers still design systems and publish campaigns with a default assumption of level 1-20?
Why make the default something that only a fraction of groups will experience?
Are there commercial reasons to cater to the fraction of groups that make it past 12th level?”
And he opines that
“I've come around to the belief that the great majority of the time, energy, and resources put into RPGs is never fulfilled in actual play, and never goes further than enticing prospects living in the imaginations of the creators and the buyers. And that this aspirational approach to the hobby is baked into both the industry and the culture around the game. Books are are designed to be read (often by buyers who don't actively game) rather than used at the table. Character progressions mapped out but never achieved. Campaigns promise epic arcs that are never fulfilled.
A D&D (and RPG hobby in general) that was built strictly around servicing the typical needs of actual play would look very, very different from what we have.”
My view is that the answer is more that the designers have built the game largely to service the actual play - levels 1-10. The proportion of effort that appears to have gone into levels 11-20 and level 20+ are about equivalent to the current (& expected) amount of play for those levels ie pretty minimal
Whatever the reason for that play.
“So why do publishers still design systems and publish campaigns with a default assumption of level 1-20?
Why make the default something that only a fraction of groups will experience?
Are there commercial reasons to cater to the fraction of groups that make it past 12th level?”
And he opines that
“I've come around to the belief that the great majority of the time, energy, and resources put into RPGs is never fulfilled in actual play, and never goes further than enticing prospects living in the imaginations of the creators and the buyers. And that this aspirational approach to the hobby is baked into both the industry and the culture around the game. Books are are designed to be read (often by buyers who don't actively game) rather than used at the table. Character progressions mapped out but never achieved. Campaigns promise epic arcs that are never fulfilled.
A D&D (and RPG hobby in general) that was built strictly around servicing the typical needs of actual play would look very, very different from what we have.”
My view is that the answer is more that the designers have built the game largely to service the actual play - levels 1-10. The proportion of effort that appears to have gone into levels 11-20 and level 20+ are about equivalent to the current (& expected) amount of play for those levels ie pretty minimal
Whatever the reason for that play.
Lanefan
Victoria Rules
No, but it's harder to relate to a mighty warrior atop a pile of dead enemies than to a farmgirl who just killed her first Orc.
Agreed, and add familiarity to that list: Elves and Dwarves and Hobbitlings have been around long enough that they're ingrained into the culture; Tieflings and Dragonborn not so much.
But after that, it's about what you can relate with. Maybe it's a generational thing, but I think people relate to Bilbo and Garion and Rand al'Thor* because they start out as "everyman" and their development takes place slowly enough through their stories that the relatibility is never really lost.
* - for the first few books anyway; that whole series kinda goes off the rails around book 6 or so.
Yes, there's some of that to be sure; but if someone's bound and determined to play such a character right off the hop shouldn't they be steered toward a supers game instead?
Quickleaf
Legend
@Haffrung
There's some recent data about campaign level spread from D&D Beyond's Dev Update today (12/19/2019), which the devs say accounts for 30 million characters. Obviously, there's lots of questions you can ask about the data. But it is a very large sample size. Essentially, it confirms what WotC has been saying, that there's a vastly smaller group of high-level campaigns compared to low-to-mid-level campaigns. The slight uptick at 20th is interesting though.
There's some recent data about campaign level spread from D&D Beyond's Dev Update today (12/19/2019), which the devs say accounts for 30 million characters. Obviously, there's lots of questions you can ask about the data. But it is a very large sample size. Essentially, it confirms what WotC has been saying, that there's a vastly smaller group of high-level campaigns compared to low-to-mid-level campaigns. The slight uptick at 20th is interesting though.
Tony Vargas
Legend
Brand-new players are rarely bound nor determined (disappointed, OTOH, yeah, sometimes), they're just going on what they already know, and the genre features larger-than-life heroes rather a lot.
And, no, even broaching the concept that there are other games in addition to D&D would be a bridge too far for most new players.
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