zedturtle
Jacob Rodgers
I'm reasonably confident that it's folks just experimenting with a fully tricked out character just for fun or for a one-shot.
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D&D General Level 1-20 and the gulf between aspirations and reality
- Thread starter Haffrung
- Start date
I'm reasonably confident that it's folks just experimenting with a fully tricked out character just for fun or for a one-shot.
In my opinion, the amount of adventures going to the end-level is reduced because the target market for adventures is even more low-level oriented than the general market. Most "new" DM will want to stick to published adventures for their first few tries, because they are learning the ropes of DM'ing. Once DMs are experienced, they can either stay in the market (because they lack the time or inclination to build an adventure from scratch) while a portion of the DMs will homebrew their settings and adventures. So, the market for high-level adventures is more reduced than the market for adventures in general. Plus, new DM will probably be happy to start their campaign with level 1 PCs 'cause they are more manageable.
Along the same lines, once you reach high level (even if 5e doesn't become as ludicrous as 3.5 could) the PCs are much more varied in their abilities and I think designing published adventure is more difficult as you need to take into account many more variables; so high-level play needs more prep time for GMs, hence reduced usefulness of the published materials. As other have mentioned earlier, high-level charcters more often drive the action than low-level characters (because the latter lacks the mean to significantly influence the world... a 3rd level party must obey the laws of Cormyr, and 18th level party could reasonably decide a regime change in Cormyr is in order instead of following rules against paying with foreign gold pieces... and declare this goal in the middle of an adventure), hence less need for high level adventure.
However, this increases, and not reduces the NEED for high level adventure. So why are they published? My take is that even if the campaign peters out due to real life constraint, the appeal of going after a big bad you love to hate is great. And you can't really care about a recurring villain you've only seen once or twice, so the campaign need to develop over some levels. And it's not a total waste of money on the DM's part because more often than not, those adventures are salvageable for parts. In my experience of a campaign so far around level 16, it's difficult to find balanced encounters: players tend to wallop over opposition at these levels; so it's quite possible that the higher-tier adventures could be used with lower level PCs with minimal fuss... which campaign in D&D assumes that the characters have access to planeshift? More often than not, they include some elements to run an interesting trip and include a sidebar saying that probably the party will just teleport over... So, to summarize, my opinion is that including the higher-tier makes the adventure more compelling (so the DM decides to run it) and said DM doesn't think he spent money badly by buying the whole AP, so, there is a target market, a bigger market than just the DMs looking for something to play as is.
I don't take small spell lists as a sign of lack of development in character class, because at the higher end, the rules to design your own spells should probably be used... Those Leomund and Bigby spells are enticing players to come up with their own signature spells -- this is wizard-centric, i know.
Along the same lines, once you reach high level (even if 5e doesn't become as ludicrous as 3.5 could) the PCs are much more varied in their abilities and I think designing published adventure is more difficult as you need to take into account many more variables; so high-level play needs more prep time for GMs, hence reduced usefulness of the published materials. As other have mentioned earlier, high-level charcters more often drive the action than low-level characters (because the latter lacks the mean to significantly influence the world... a 3rd level party must obey the laws of Cormyr, and 18th level party could reasonably decide a regime change in Cormyr is in order instead of following rules against paying with foreign gold pieces... and declare this goal in the middle of an adventure), hence less need for high level adventure.
However, this increases, and not reduces the NEED for high level adventure. So why are they published? My take is that even if the campaign peters out due to real life constraint, the appeal of going after a big bad you love to hate is great. And you can't really care about a recurring villain you've only seen once or twice, so the campaign need to develop over some levels. And it's not a total waste of money on the DM's part because more often than not, those adventures are salvageable for parts. In my experience of a campaign so far around level 16, it's difficult to find balanced encounters: players tend to wallop over opposition at these levels; so it's quite possible that the higher-tier adventures could be used with lower level PCs with minimal fuss... which campaign in D&D assumes that the characters have access to planeshift? More often than not, they include some elements to run an interesting trip and include a sidebar saying that probably the party will just teleport over... So, to summarize, my opinion is that including the higher-tier makes the adventure more compelling (so the DM decides to run it) and said DM doesn't think he spent money badly by buying the whole AP, so, there is a target market, a bigger market than just the DMs looking for something to play as is.
I don't take small spell lists as a sign of lack of development in character class, because at the higher end, the rules to design your own spells should probably be used... Those Leomund and Bigby spells are enticing players to come up with their own signature spells -- this is wizard-centric, i know.
dave2008
Legend
Yes, but the comment was in regard to there not being any WotC adventures that go to lvl 20. The fact that it starts at lvl 5 is not relevant to that discussion. Also, I believe there are some AL paths that go to lvl 20.
dave2008
Legend
I know I always play a session or two at max level in a new edition just to give it a try. Since our campaigns rarely make it that far. I guess I'm not the only one.
Sword of Spirit
Legend
I think the issue is the assumption that a campaign should start at Level 1. That isn’t a good assumption. A campaign needs to start at whatever level makes the most sense for that campaign,
With the influx of new players, maybe it isn’t too late to shift perspectives, but it would take serious work, such as a new PHB that added “Ask Your DM What The Campaign Starting Level Is” right at the beginning as one of the fundamental step-by-step components of character creation.
And then, it would take the designers constantly saying it across every form of media. And it would take them proactively publishing mega adventures that unavoidable started at level 10+ (no catch up adventures to start at earlier levels) for like 3 years, followed by varying levels of future mega-adventure starting levels on a regular basis.
The only reason so many people default to 1st Level is because they just assume that’s how it’s done, and the only way to get people to experience those higher levels regularly is to remove that assumption.
I doubt there is any motivation to take those extreme steps, but I think that is where the issue lies.
As an aside, something else that would help would be adding a focus on theme-adventures that are just intended to run 10 sessions or less and have little leveling in them. They start at whatever level makes sense, so you get experience trying new levels and trying new characters without feeling like you have to abandon a longer campaign just because you want to try something new for a bit.
With the influx of new players, maybe it isn’t too late to shift perspectives, but it would take serious work, such as a new PHB that added “Ask Your DM What The Campaign Starting Level Is” right at the beginning as one of the fundamental step-by-step components of character creation.
And then, it would take the designers constantly saying it across every form of media. And it would take them proactively publishing mega adventures that unavoidable started at level 10+ (no catch up adventures to start at earlier levels) for like 3 years, followed by varying levels of future mega-adventure starting levels on a regular basis.
The only reason so many people default to 1st Level is because they just assume that’s how it’s done, and the only way to get people to experience those higher levels regularly is to remove that assumption.
I doubt there is any motivation to take those extreme steps, but I think that is where the issue lies.
As an aside, something else that would help would be adding a focus on theme-adventures that are just intended to run 10 sessions or less and have little leveling in them. They start at whatever level makes sense, so you get experience trying new levels and trying new characters without feeling like you have to abandon a longer campaign just because you want to try something new for a bit.
I see, I was adding a clarification, but I agree with your broader point.
Ogre Mage
Hero
I usually push for my group to start at Level 5 and sometimes we do. But there are some group members who like to start lower so Level 3 is usually the compromise choice. Starting higher does seem to help. The large majority of our ongoing campaigns have gotten past Level 10. None have survived past Level 16 however.
But that is better than in my 3.X days when I played with people who insisted on starting at Level 1 and then quickly lost interest early in Tier 2. Then we would start over at Level 1 and the cycle would repeat itself.
But that is better than in my 3.X days when I played with people who insisted on starting at Level 1 and then quickly lost interest early in Tier 2. Then we would start over at Level 1 and the cycle would repeat itself.
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The game goes to level 20 because some groups will play that high, or even start that high. When they created 1E D&D, it was not expected that many (if any) players reached high level if the rules were followed (Gygax's group took 5 years to hit level 10), but wanted to have options for when/if anyone did get there (sadly many groups handed out xp like candy, with level 100+ characters). Just because most games won't get there doesn't mean they shouldn't have them.
FWIW, I ran my first campaign from level 3-18 and had no problems. Only 1 player needed to leave the game due to IRL reasons, and I still game with the same group every week. If the story hadn't come to a close (fighting Lolth in the Demonweb Pits), we could easily have hit level 20 and continued on.
FWIW, I ran my first campaign from level 3-18 and had no problems. Only 1 player needed to leave the game due to IRL reasons, and I still game with the same group every week. If the story hadn't come to a close (fighting Lolth in the Demonweb Pits), we could easily have hit level 20 and continued on.
Sadras
Legend
Well, I plan on running high level campaigns for a while (11th+).
I did not attempt it in my youth and have missed out on much of the planar fanfare so would like to experience it as much of it as I can now (Forbidden Lore, Demon/Devil Princes/Lords, Planar Travel, Cosmic Threats, Minor Deities, Legendary Relics, Lovecraftian Horrors...etc)
I did not attempt it in my youth and have missed out on much of the planar fanfare so would like to experience it as much of it as I can now (Forbidden Lore, Demon/Devil Princes/Lords, Planar Travel, Cosmic Threats, Minor Deities, Legendary Relics, Lovecraftian Horrors...etc)
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Aldarc
Legend
I would add to this discussion by pointing out that while a lot of D&D derivative games have characters (potentially) going up to 20th level - as per an earlier observation - many other D&D derivative games, particularly over the past decade place the cap at level 10 (e.g., 13th Age, Shadow of the Demon Lord, Dungeon Crawl Classics, Black Hack, Beyond the Wall, etc.).
I do like Shadow of the Demon Lord's structure, leveling, and adventure design. The ten levels are broken up into three tiers of play. Adventures are designed for a particular tier. Leveling happens upon the completion of an adventure, and you can mix and match adventures to work up towards 10th level.
I do like Shadow of the Demon Lord's structure, leveling, and adventure design. The ten levels are broken up into three tiers of play. Adventures are designed for a particular tier. Leveling happens upon the completion of an adventure, and you can mix and match adventures to work up towards 10th level.
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