Fixing/Improving Recall Knowledge

[Campbell]

First and foremost question:

How many Recall actions do you envision the heroes spending during the battle?

I have used it occasionally to identify creatures on the first round of combat. I have also wished I could use it during later parts of an encounter when we have been up against creatures with immunities, resistances and weird powers. The Barbarian I have been playing in PFS cannot utilize it while under the effects of Rage.

It definitely is situational, but so are most things in the game including Demoralize, Feint, Trip, and Grapple all of which I have used. It is obviously superior to scout ahead and use it before combat erupts. That's a good thing though. The game should reward you for reconnaissance.

 

[CapnZapp]

I have used it occasionally to identify creatures on the first round of combat. I have also wished I could use it during later parts of an encounter when we have been up against creatures with immunities, resistances and weird powers. The Barbarian I have been playing in PFS cannot utilize it while under the effects of Rage.

It definitely is situational, but so are most things in the game including Demoralize, Feint, Trip, and Grapple all of which I have used. It is obviously superior to scout ahead and use it before combat erupts. That's a good thing though. The game should reward you for reconnaissance.

Talk about dodging the question!

How many Recall Knowledge actions do you feel is reasonable to spend in a combat?

I'm looking for a numerical answer. Not necessarily a single exact number. A rough guess is fine. 1? 2? 5? More?

I'm asking because I don't see how we can continue the discussion if I don't have your ballpark.

 

[5ekyu]

Talk about dodging the question!

How many Recall Knowledge actions do you feel is reasonable to spend in a combat?

I'm looking for a numerical answer. Not necessarily a single exact number. A rough guess is fine. 1? 2? 5? More?

I'm asking because I don't see how we can continue the discussion if I don't have your ballpark.

Well, is this combat a quickie warm- up pre-intermission level - 2 skirmish or a big honking no holds barred boss + minions blow-off at level +1?

I think you are meaning to measure this for a tough fight, one that matters, that will seriously vary depending on knowledge or not - but without that ballpark it's hard to be sure.

 

[CapnZapp]

I mean that statements such as "I have used it occasionally to identify creatures" are meaningless. How many Recall Knowledge actions did you spend - exactly? Did you think that expenditure was worthwhile?

Have you played non-raging characters or are you basing your opinion solely on a character the action is clearly not meant for?

A statement such as "It definitely is situational, but so are most things in the game" doesn't say much either. Mostly it comes across as an attempt to relativize, which does not help.

So in order to have a meaningful exchange of ideas it would help to know the expectations of my dialogue partner - if Campbell believes it is okay to spend, say, 5 Recall actions per fight on average, then I would know his expectations are way off compared to mine, and that we probably won't come to any agreement.

In the same vein, if Campbell's experience is that you get all the Recall Knowledge actions you want by scouting ahead, I would expect that to utterly short-circuit the expectation that these actions are used in combat.

But without a more detailed picture, I simply won't know what to say as a response that seems to indicate a poster that thinks the system is reasonable and works well enough.

 

[CapnZapp]

Well, is this combat a quickie warm- up pre-intermission level - 2 skirmish or a big honking no holds barred boss + minions blow-off at level +1?

I think you are meaning to measure this for a tough fight, one that matters, that will seriously vary depending on knowledge or not - but without that ballpark it's hard to be sure.

Yes, I'm talking a meaningful fight.

 

[CapnZapp]

Now also discussed here:

paizo.com - Forums: Advice: Save Rock, Paper, Scissors

paizo.com

So far, lots of people can't even admit the idea of Recall Knowledge as an action is broken, and there are no other solutions than people basically ignoring the book and interpreting it as "if you spend an action on Recall Knowledge I the GM will basically tell you something useful", without bothering to answer the question why adventurers don't sit around the fire at night just spending Recall Knowledge actions to basically load the entire Bestiary into their minds...

 

[CapnZapp]

CapnZapp made a post about the issues with Recall Knowledge in the GM experience thread and suggested there be a separate discussion.

For those interested, that post is here:

Pathfinder 2 GM Experience

I only played PF1 when it first launched but went back to 3.5. I'm sure Paizo wasn't the first to invent the idea of a secret roll. I'm also sure I encountered them at some point but for whatever reason they didn't resonate with me as they do now.I remember secret rolls as far back as... 80s...

www.enworld.org

 

[The-Magic-Sword]

What an aggressively silly discussion

Zapp: The Recall Knowledge skill is written to allow a character to recall a specific piece of information, it's very much designed for the player to have an idea of what question they need answered when they use it, which naturally prompts the GM's response.

When your player says "I want to recall knowledge on the Golem" that isn't enough information, so you would ask "What do you want to know?"

and they might answer:

"I want to know if this creature is resistant to anything"

"I want to know what kind of attacks this monster has difficulty avoiding" (or more directly, "I want to know it's lowest save")

"Do I think this creature would actually eat a child?"

"What kind of spells is a creature like this capable of casting?"

or any other contextually useful piece of information they might need.

If you play it this way (which is RAW, from having just read the recall knowledge activity) something like Hypercognition doesn't become an exercise in random improv, it just allows the character to check out the creature's stats in a very efficient way. This applies out of combat as well, though hyper cognition is less useful because there's no time constraint:

"How did this once powerful civilization fall?"

"What Gods are worshiped in this land?"

"Is the King known to be an honorable man?"

"What's causing her illness?"

You can use it without the plaer asking for a specific piece of information, but then its up to you what question you're answering- this is the generalized knowledge check you're used to where you just write a little blurb next to the object that you suspect will trigger a check, and the player doesn't have any input on the nature of the information they receive.

Critical Failure and Dubious Knowledge just mean you lie:

"You've heard the King referred to as Javier the Fair" Truth: This is propoganda, the people call him 'Javier the Cruel'

Knowing the correct answer generally means you can identify an immediate and obvious lie that you can tell (it's literally the opposite of the truth you would have said on a conventional success)

 

[CapnZapp]

What an aggressively silly discussion

I stand by my statements.

If you wish to discuss them you will have to be a lot more specific than calling them "silly".

 

[The-Magic-Sword]

I stand by my statements.

If you wish to discuss them you will have to be a lot more specific than calling them "silly".

Uh, the post goes on for a while doing exactly that, is it not showing on your end or something?