D&D 3E/3.5 Why 3.5 Worked

[Greg K]

• Prestige classes eroded the sense of class identity, while simultaneously giving players false hope of abilities they would likely never reach. Players created "builds" to go to level 20, but still never really got beyond level 10. This meant the game started at level 1, but the characters didn't feel complete until level 8.

PrCs were an optional rule. Even if used, each was subject to the DM's approval. Personally, as a DM, I preferred using UA style class variants and variant abilities, DMG variants (e.g. variant spell lists), and a few third party base classes. As a last resort, I used the 0/0 multiclassing rules from the 3.0 DMG.

• It was really obnoxious as a DM to create NPCs or to adjust monsters. Even if you had digital tools, this took much longer than it should.

True. However, I never understood the need many DMs had for worrying about this stuff unless they were publishing their work.

• ECL did not work.

Again, true. However, I also saw many DMs misunderstanding and misusing CR and ECL. Furthermore, the DMG also discussed that not all encounters need to be tailored encounters (i.e. those taking into account character level vs CR and ECL). According to the DMG, it was perfectly fine to include status quo encounters (those in which creatures were placed at a location because it made sense) or even just using status quo encounters.

• Multiclassing was super abusive because of how abilities were gained from new classes.

I didn't have too many issues except for multiclassing granting proficiency in all of a classes's armor and weapon proficiencies, and good saves. Personally, I house ruled this.

• Descending BAB made the math needlessly complicated. I suspect the game would have been much better balanced if BAB was the same for all attacks.

Can you clarify this? What do you mean by descending BAB? As for a unified BAB for all classes, personally, I dislike this in 4e and 5e. What I did dislike is extra attacks being determined by BAB from all classes.

 

[Quartz]

I really don't get all the complaints about difficulty in creating monsters. Sure you can go through the whole palaver or you can just scribble down the relevant bits and be done. Combat opponent? AC 30, 2000 HP, 4 bite attacks at 4d8+10, BAB +30, Combat Reflexes & Power Attack feats, Size Colossal. Add in fluff as necessary. Combat getting boring? Give the critter Dimension Door or Spell Turning or a breath weapon on the fly. If it proves a fun fight, then write it up a bit more for next time.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

I think that 3.5 requires a lot of time and energy be invested in order to get what you want out of it. It is a sprawling ruleset when you consider the various supplements and splats and builder books. If you have the patience to sift through this, though, you can model pretty much anything you want. And because you necessarily need to restrict this enormous palette of options before considering the game and game world, this forces interesting choices on you.

I don't think I've played in a D&D game where the mechanics are quite as explicitly embedded in the game world as 3.5, either. Some people don't like that; I do.

 

[Quartz]

I think that 3.5 requires a lot of time and energy be invested in order to get what you want out of it.

And yet you made it so elegant and simple in your Wyre campaign.

 

[Mr. Patient]

Can you clarify this? What do you mean by descending BAB? As for a unified BAB for all classes, personally, I dislike this in 4e and 5e. What I did dislike is extra attacks being determined by BAB from all classes.

I believe Bacon Bits is referring to the cumulative -5 penalty on iterative attacks in 3.x. The later attacks in the sequence become quite unlikely to hit, but the player will obviously still take them, because why wouldn't they? It becomes really painful when dealing with dual-wielding high-level rangers who might have four attacks with each hand, each with different bonuses. It's the sort of thing that gets everyone else at the table to tune out while the ranger rolls literally dozens of dice on a single turn.

 

[Oofta]

I believe Bacon Bits is referring to the cumulative -5 penalty on iterative attacks in 3.x. The later attacks in the sequence become quite unlikely to hit, but the player will obviously still take them, because why wouldn't they? It becomes really painful when dealing with dual-wielding high-level rangers who might have four attacks with each hand, each with different bonuses. It's the sort of thing that gets everyone else at the table to tune out while the ranger rolls literally dozens of dice on a single turn.

Yep. I was up to 30 some dice with one PC IIRC. I had a worksheet and would roll ahead of time, but if you didn't do that it took forever. Get a DM that didn't allow that (I hit that once or twice in out of region cons that were adversarial) and it took forever.

Multiple attacks, multiple energy types, different materials, spells, position and on and on.

 

[Quartz]

Heaven forfend that that marilith had levels in Ranger or Perfect Multiweapon Fighting. "Yes, she really does get 24 attacks on you."

 

[hawkeyefan]

Ugh iterative attacks. Seemed so great at first.....but such a nightmare to deal with as time went on.

I realize that I've probably come across like I didn't like this edition, but that's really not the case. It's just that there are many things I would have done differently, especially with the benefit of hindsight.

Some of the things I think 3.x did well:

• The organization of classes- The little charts made character creation and leveling up so much easier than they'd ever been prior. This applies to the layout of the rules, overall, really.
• Every character has skills- They went with far too many, but it was definitely good to have rules for this stuff beyond the flimsy proficiency system of earlier editions
• Feats- Ultimately these became a real problem, but earlier on they were one of the most exciting elements of the game, and I still like the idea. Specific abilities that any character can have that are not necessarily tied to their class...it's a great idea that just got out of hand.
• Mutli-classing- Another area that would lead to certain problems, but sooo much better than what came before. Simpler than previous editions.
• Increasing AC and Streamlined Saving Throws- Simplifying AC and making the game work so that high numbers are always better was a long time coming. Likewise, breaking the saving throws up in a sensible way rather than the haphazard way it had been done before.

I think all these things really resonated with the players in my group, and it made 3e the edition that really gelled for my group. I loved all the stuff above when I first opened the PHB, and the improvements were clear and I understood why they were made. With time, and more from a DM's persepctive than a player's, some of these things would be problems to one degree or another, but it was all very solid at the start.

 

[JeffB]

Heaven forfend that that marilith had levels in Ranger or Perfect Multiweapon Fighting. "Yes, she really does get 24 attacks on you."

I was just thinking about this (as I stated before-going through all the demon stats in the MM's- in particular I was looking at Marilith in each edition). In 3.0 she also had about 15 at will spells to reference in the PHB.

 

[Blue]

3.5 wasn’t broke. It just ran its course and was time for a new edition. The same thing that will happen with 5E. And then people will say 5E was broken. They were all good games. But once so many copy sales and/or people want to try something with new bells and whistles then it will stop selling and it will be time for 6E.

After running 3.0 & 3.5 for 12 years, I assure you it was broken. From the DM side. Prepping for a high level encounter, especially involving NPCs, took hours and hours. Per encounter. Especially with the level of power creep that the large amount of books brought.

That's before the point that high level casters had everything casters did plus were better at doing what the martial characters did due to their self buffs. CoDzilla was real.