Urriak Uruk
Gaming is fun, and fun is for everyone
I thought it best for me to make this thread so that people can actually take this debate onto a thread that's actually built for it, instead of flooding threads built for another purpose.
In case you're new, here's the gist; Greyhawk! Arguably the first (yeah I know Blackmoor) campaign setting for D&D, the world of Oerth. Here's its description from 1d4chan;
Old-ass setting made with help from the G-man himself; lots of the core fluff is from here.
This setting is by far the best one - Toril can go f*** itself because Oerth is THE S**T! A peasant's life is full of s**t, just like it should be. Magic items do not grow on trees in Oerth. The Gods are not going to help with every little problem you have here. The Blood War's origin is actually clear and logical. And the Circle of Eight aretotal badasses well... it's complicated.
When you're a kid, some of those first things you experience will always be magical. The first porn you see/watch. That first booze you drink. The first hit of a joint. First time you have actual sex. Sure, you may have other great versions of that experience, but the more you do them, the fewer of them stand out as exceptional. But that first time? It's special, it's a milestone in your life.
Greyhawk isn't just the first campaign most people play. It's the first campaign that was ever created (STFU Blackmoor!). Sure, it doesn't always make sense. The fact that some of the nations have leaders like "His Transcendent Imperial Majesty, Overking Xavener I, Grand Prince of Kalstrand, Crowned Head of House Darmen" gives Greyhawk that eternal homebrew feel. It was created all hodge-podge, and sure it got a little ridiculous in places, but you can really feel Gary Gygax's love of D&D when you see all the little silly details he put into this thing.
This game setting is a labor of love. It doesn't always make the most sense, but it's as comfortable as those sneakers you wore in high school, and it's always there for you.
Forgotten Realms? F**k that noise. Sure it might have started that way, but it's turned into a Goddamn marketing strategy, one in whichMarty Stu Elminster gets to f**k women he's three times (or more) older than, including goddesses and pretty much anyone Ed Greenwood feels he should have gotten to naughty word in life. Even Gygax admitted that Mordenkainen was a bit of a dick who didn't really have all the answers he claimed to, he was just winging that "enforced neutrality" bit. Plus, Mordenkainen isn't some pushy perverted creep; he might be a f**k-up, but he's got some standards.
Eberron isn't bad in and of itself, it's just a bit less fantasy and more steampunk-ish, plus the setting is geared for low-level PCs which means you'll be breaking the world in half in a few sessions if the DM isn't careful. Dark Sun is pretty f**king grimdark; your players need to be ready to make new characters every few sessions if they treat it like a beer-and-pretzels thing. Mystara is the only other thing that compares, and only because it is just as homebrew in nature. The only reason Mystara isn't quite as good is because it's a little more constrained (no gods, little in the way of cosmology), but in other ways it has great stuff (complicated domain and war rules/mechanics, very complex political situations). Dragonlance is a bit more on the high-fantasy scale, similar to LOTR in scope and theme; sure you do some dungeon-crawling, but it can't just be to get rich or die trying, it's because "things" are happening. Birthright isn't terrible, but there's probably better systems for running empires and wargames. Planescape and Spelljammer really aren't even their own settings, they're "unified" settings meant to mix and match with the rest of them.
Greyhawk is best if you want to play a homebrew setting without all the work involved in making one yourself, but is still inclusive enough to give you room to add your own little touches as you like to it. And that's what Gary wanted us to do: share this hot mess of an idea and put out own little spins on it.
Anyway, now that it's introduction is out of the way... let's move on to its "races" controversy.
You see, Greyhawk is very human-focused. There are six human races, each of which probably gets more fluff and history than any non-human race.
More than that, back in the day you really couldn't play as all of the 4E (and now 5E) races. Tieflings and Dragonborn just didn't exist. The monstrous races, including orcs, goblins, drow and the like, were considered NPCs only. There are almost no examples of individuals of those races pulling a D'rrizt and bucking their races culture to be a good guy.
But now we're in 5E. Now, it's considered the norm to have a mixed-race group of characters. The PHB includes not just the base races of Greyhawk like humans, dwarves halflings, and elves, but half-orcs and tieflings and dragonborn. The Ghosts of Saltmarsh adventure book, remade for 5E, includes a tiefling NPC and has dragonborn within the art.
So, what is the better path? To usher in this setting into the new 5E age by adapting these changes? Or is it better to maintain the old paradigm, and block these options?
In case you're new, here's the gist; Greyhawk! Arguably the first (yeah I know Blackmoor) campaign setting for D&D, the world of Oerth. Here's its description from 1d4chan;
Old-ass setting made with help from the G-man himself; lots of the core fluff is from here.
This setting is by far the best one - Toril can go f*** itself because Oerth is THE S**T! A peasant's life is full of s**t, just like it should be. Magic items do not grow on trees in Oerth. The Gods are not going to help with every little problem you have here. The Blood War's origin is actually clear and logical. And the Circle of Eight are
When you're a kid, some of those first things you experience will always be magical. The first porn you see/watch. That first booze you drink. The first hit of a joint. First time you have actual sex. Sure, you may have other great versions of that experience, but the more you do them, the fewer of them stand out as exceptional. But that first time? It's special, it's a milestone in your life.
Greyhawk isn't just the first campaign most people play. It's the first campaign that was ever created (STFU Blackmoor!). Sure, it doesn't always make sense. The fact that some of the nations have leaders like "His Transcendent Imperial Majesty, Overking Xavener I, Grand Prince of Kalstrand, Crowned Head of House Darmen" gives Greyhawk that eternal homebrew feel. It was created all hodge-podge, and sure it got a little ridiculous in places, but you can really feel Gary Gygax's love of D&D when you see all the little silly details he put into this thing.
This game setting is a labor of love. It doesn't always make the most sense, but it's as comfortable as those sneakers you wore in high school, and it's always there for you.
Forgotten Realms? F**k that noise. Sure it might have started that way, but it's turned into a Goddamn marketing strategy, one in which
Eberron isn't bad in and of itself, it's just a bit less fantasy and more steampunk-ish, plus the setting is geared for low-level PCs which means you'll be breaking the world in half in a few sessions if the DM isn't careful. Dark Sun is pretty f**king grimdark; your players need to be ready to make new characters every few sessions if they treat it like a beer-and-pretzels thing. Mystara is the only other thing that compares, and only because it is just as homebrew in nature. The only reason Mystara isn't quite as good is because it's a little more constrained (no gods, little in the way of cosmology), but in other ways it has great stuff (complicated domain and war rules/mechanics, very complex political situations). Dragonlance is a bit more on the high-fantasy scale, similar to LOTR in scope and theme; sure you do some dungeon-crawling, but it can't just be to get rich or die trying, it's because "things" are happening. Birthright isn't terrible, but there's probably better systems for running empires and wargames. Planescape and Spelljammer really aren't even their own settings, they're "unified" settings meant to mix and match with the rest of them.
Greyhawk is best if you want to play a homebrew setting without all the work involved in making one yourself, but is still inclusive enough to give you room to add your own little touches as you like to it. And that's what Gary wanted us to do: share this hot mess of an idea and put out own little spins on it.
Anyway, now that it's introduction is out of the way... let's move on to its "races" controversy.
You see, Greyhawk is very human-focused. There are six human races, each of which probably gets more fluff and history than any non-human race.
More than that, back in the day you really couldn't play as all of the 4E (and now 5E) races. Tieflings and Dragonborn just didn't exist. The monstrous races, including orcs, goblins, drow and the like, were considered NPCs only. There are almost no examples of individuals of those races pulling a D'rrizt and bucking their races culture to be a good guy.
But now we're in 5E. Now, it's considered the norm to have a mixed-race group of characters. The PHB includes not just the base races of Greyhawk like humans, dwarves halflings, and elves, but half-orcs and tieflings and dragonborn. The Ghosts of Saltmarsh adventure book, remade for 5E, includes a tiefling NPC and has dragonborn within the art.
So, what is the better path? To usher in this setting into the new 5E age by adapting these changes? Or is it better to maintain the old paradigm, and block these options?