Dungeon World

[Ovinomancer]

@Panda-s1 my players are kinda bored with it. The OSR fan thinks it's too easy, the 5e player thinks there aren't enough options, but the PF player likes the ease of play because he doesn't want to make any extra time investment in this game.

I've been re-reading the rulebook today. I'm fairly convinced I'm running it closely to RAW, but there's obviously something missing (as many in this thread are pointing out).

Perhaps I'm not cut out for extreme GM Fiat games like FATE, DW, etc.

This isn't an "extreme GM fiat" game, though. I has very clear delineations on what and when a GM can do. Your issue appears to be that you don't actually do what you need to do -- you don't make a failure HARD on the PCs. You don't ask for enough rolls in combat. Take your example above. A dragonbone is big, like big, with a long neck capable of striking at a distance. Your Barbarian rushing in would have so do some Defy Dangers just to close to get to do a Hack and Slash. I mean, it has the Reach and Messy tags! Also, how is the Fighter defending the Barbarian if he hasn't closed to the Dragonbone so that he can be beside the Barbarian? Goodness! I mean, sure, the rolls you relate are straight up successes, but there needed to be many more rolls called for.

And the Lich! Good grief, those are scary! That DM move of 'Reveal a preparation or plan already completed' is either a get out of jail free card or a way to make the PC's lives truly miserable. It says, in effect, that the lich can now reveal a plan that's already true that will help the situation for the lich. An escape plan, that this is a trap, that the lich had captured the PC's families -- that's, like, really, really bad stuff, there.

There's no way that the PCs rolled well enough to Defy all of that danger, get their licks in without return. I mean, sure, they look like they had good rolls, but not enough. You need to push harder on the PCs. DW is a game where your PCs should have been quaking in their boots at ONE of the threats you list in that fight. That Dragonbone is hideously scary, and it's still something I'd rather face than the Lich.

 

[Manbearcat]

I agree with @pemerton and @Ovinomancer above Retreater.

I think broadly the rest of your table is struggling with the game’s play agenda (and is likely smuggling things in from elsewhere) and you’re probably having some trouble picking your moves in a way that follows the play agenda and GMing principles.

Genre logic and dramatic need (those ensconced in each of the PCs’ builds from Bonds to Look to Alignment to Moves) are fundamental to every moment of the game. But none of that is GM Fiat. That’s just aggressive creativity along a particular wavelength.

 

[Manbearcat]

@Ovinomancer

Those exact points about combat were precisely what I was going to cover when I got to combat with him.

Merely closing to melee with a creature that has that much of a Reach advantage should be brutal and likely costly! Messy with significant Reach Tag advantage? You’re talking HP loss, damaged armor, disarmed, helmet on backwards so you can’t see, disability, lost fingers or worse by the time you actually engage!

And with two melee characters it’s much more difficult.

And again, you have to be by the player you’re defending. And if they have the Messy tag, you’re still having to deal with that if you decide to halve the damage.

And that isn’t even getting into making terrain features prominent components of the battle (both for PCs to use and to Harry PCs as complications).

 

[Retreater]

Why do you think DW is GM Fiat while something like 2e and 5e (which are all GM Fiat driven and vulnerable to Force in the extreme) are not?

The extreme GM Fiat in games like DW is "create an ability that your monster has. If a character rolls a threat, you can enact that ability. If it's a stronger ability, the character has to roll a 'serious threat.'" In D&D you have abilities like a dragon's breath attack (for example). Depending on the edition, maybe the dragon can use it as an Encounter Ability, Every 1d4 rounds, or maybe it recharges when the dragon is bloodied. But it is codified. It does 8d6 fire damage in a cone, save for half. And you know that's what it does.
In DW, maybe that same dragon can do the fire breath every round. Maybe once per battle. How much damage does it do? It doesn't say. Does it melt the character's armor and root them to the spot, turning their longsword into worthless slag, roasting them alive in their mail? The book offers no guidelines at all what a breath weapon does.

 

[Retreater]

Your Barbarian rushing in would have so do some Defy Dangers just to close to get to do a Hack and Slash. I mean, it has the Reach and Messy tags!

She did, using a Strength defy danger to leap over the cover of sarcophagi and succeeded with such a high result that the danger was redirected on the bone dragon. The fighter used a Strength defy danger to close the gap, using his shield to block the attacks, pushing through into position.
The lich's nefarious plan was to bring in a horde of ghouls, which was quickly countered by the cleric's turn undead. If I had gotten another opportunity, what could I have done? The lich could have teleported away - but the party would've won anyway. I guess maybe I could have done a death attack on one of the characters?

 

[Ovinomancer]

The extreme GM Fiat in games like DW is "create an ability that your monster has. If a character rolls a threat, you can enact that ability. If it's a stronger ability, the character has to roll a 'serious threat.'" In D&D you have abilities like a dragon's breath attack (for example). Depending on the edition, maybe the dragon can use it as an Encounter Ability, Every 1d4 rounds, or maybe it recharges when the dragon is bloodied. But it is codified. It does 8d6 fire damage in a cone, save for half. And you know that's what it does.
In DW, maybe that same dragon can do the fire breath every round. Maybe once per battle. How much damage does it do? It doesn't say. Does it melt the character's armor and root them to the spot, turning their longsword into worthless slag, roasting them alive in their mail? The book offers no guidelines at all what a breath weapon does.

What do you think a breath weapon does? Describe it. That's what it does. Don't be stuck expecting Dungeon World to be like D&D -- it's a different game, you need different expectations. If you're going to be stuck on breath weapons not being defined in DW the same way as in D&D, then there's indeed a problem here, but it's not DM fiat. It's you trying to force a square peg into a round hole and finding out that the rules don't support it.

Monsters with breath weapons in D&D exist so you, the DM, can use the monster's turn to attack multiple PCs. In DW. That's not necessary to have in DW as a codified thing. A breath weapon in DW is a threat, not necessarily a follow through. Here's a great example: your Barbarian PC rushes up to a Dragon, trying to dodge inside it's fearsome guard while the Ranger peppers it with arrows and the Cleric prepares a spell. You roll your Defy Danger and get a partial success! You've closed inside the Dragons reach, threatening it with your blade! The dragon, however, pulls back it's head, opens it's huge jaws and inhales deeply, the cavern of it's mouth glowing red with building fire! It's sure to engulf everyone in front of it in hellfire and death! What do you do?

If you don't do something, then the dragon sets you on fire. Probably does a good chunk of damage to everyone, too. I'd use the dragon's normal damage. After all, you all had something you could have done about it before it engulfed you.

That's one example of how you could do breath weapons in DW. It's not something that needs clear design rules, because it's not going to be used on a monster than has it's turn and needs to be mechanically balanced against the PCs like in D&D. And, if you're thinking that way, it indicates that you've missed the bus a bit and are still back at the D&D station. It's a nice station, the D&D station. I like it, and go there often. But, it's not where you can play DW.

 

[Ovinomancer]

She did, using a Strength defy danger to leap over the cover of sarcophagi and succeeded with such a high result that the danger was redirected on the bone dragon. The fighter used a Strength defy danger to close the gap, using his shield to block the attacks, pushing through into position.
The lich's nefarious plan was to bring in a horde of ghouls, which was quickly countered by the cleric's turn undead. If I had gotten another opportunity, what could I have done? The lich could have teleported away - but the party would've won anyway. I guess maybe I could have done a death attack on one of the characters?

So, we have a 10+ defy danger from the Barbarian, then 2 10+ hack and slashes. The Fighter got a 10+ on the defy danger, and at least a 7+ on the defend. The Cleric got a 10+ on their turn attempt. No one had a partial or failed roll. Yeah, if the dice go that hot, I suppose you just stand and marvel at the blessing of the dice gods.

Do you have a better example of a combat that didn't work for you that wasn't visited by the dice gods?

 

[Ovinomancer]

She did, using a Strength defy danger to leap over the cover of sarcophagi and succeeded with such a high result that the danger was redirected on the bone dragon. The fighter used a Strength defy danger to close the gap, using his shield to block the attacks, pushing through into position.
The lich's nefarious plan was to bring in a horde of ghouls, which was quickly countered by the cleric's turn undead. If I had gotten another opportunity, what could I have done? The lich could have teleported away - but the party would've won anyway. I guess maybe I could have done a death attack on one of the characters?

You know, thinking on it, "I use my shield to power through to close" sounds like a good idea, except that the Dragonbone's attack pierce in excess of the shield defensive value. This is a case where you follow the fiction and say, "no can do, the Dragonbone will shred your shield on the way it -- it's just not tough enough to withstand the onslaught. Did you want to do something else?"

This is a key part of running DW -- follow the what's established in the fiction. Just because the Fighter wants to use strength to Defy Danger doesn't mean it'll work. If the fiction of the scene doesn't allow it, then it can't be done. And, using a shield to force your way through an attack when the attack would naturally destroy the shield (Messy, Piercing) is a case where you, as DM, have the duty to follow the fiction and say no. I'd tell the player this up front and not just autofail the action, though. It's important in DW to have a back and forth about what the situation is and how the fiction works. Heck, if the Fighter hefted the lid of the Sarcophagus and used that to cover his approach, I'd let that work, but add in a bend bars to lift the thing to begin with.

 

[Manbearcat]

The extreme GM Fiat in games like DW is "create an ability that your monster has. If a character rolls a threat, you can enact that ability. If it's a stronger ability, the character has to roll a 'serious threat.'" In D&D you have abilities like a dragon's breath attack (for example). Depending on the edition, maybe the dragon can use it as an Encounter Ability, Every 1d4 rounds, or maybe it recharges when the dragon is bloodied. But it is codified. It does 8d6 fire damage in a cone, save for half. And you know that's what it does.
In DW, maybe that same dragon can do the fire breath every round. Maybe once per battle. How much damage does it do? It doesn't say. Does it melt the character's armor and root them to the spot, turning their longsword into worthless slag, roasting them alive in their mail? The book offers no guidelines at all what a breath weapon does.

@Ovinomancer did a great job with his last 3 posts to address your last few posts, but I'm going to throw some words at this.

1) You're using "quotes" here. Can you cite where your quoted text is in the rule-book because I can't parse that text your (seemingly?) quoting without context. Is that your own takeaway of some text or is that actual text? I can't find it in the monster section.

2) It seems likely that you're making a pretty hefty mistake here that is pretty common (and one I find myself regularly having to try to get people not to do). You're smuggling in a premise from another game (in this case classic D&D) as your mental framework while simultaneously failing to consider Dungeon World's integrated, holistic ruleset and play paradigm.

a) There are no rounds so you don't have to worry about rounds or scheduling of abilities based on rounds/encounters/days for your monsters. You present a soft move and ask the players "what do they do" about it? If they don't respond sufficiently (either via a move or by outright ignoring the soft move), you actualize the soft move and turn it into a hard move.

b) The question of slagging armor/weapons or roasting characters alive falls onto the combination of:

• Fictional description
• Tags/Special Qualities/Instinct/Descriptors
• Forms of Attack

Consider the following:

Xoldunath (The Inferno That Will Consume The World); Ancient Red Dragon

Solitary, Huge, Magical, Divine
Bite (b[2d10]+7 damage, 3 piercing); 24 HP; 4 Armor; Reach, Forceful, Messy
Special Qualities: Wreathed in supernatural flame, Tail that fells battlements, Wings that conjure fiery vortices

A fortress impenetrable on the top of Mount Grell
Survived an age, all sieges repelled
That age ended, the minstrels will tell
When a Red without equal decided it he would fell

Instinct: To lay low the legends of man

• Firestorm from the sky
• Steal the resolve of the mightiest heroes
• Leave nothing standing in its wake

---

That should provide more than enough information to place this creature in the world in the macro, to consider its behavior socially when confronted, and to consider its behavior and means when forced into combat. What do we know from this and the rules:

1) Its melee attacks are going to do the Bite damage with Forceful and Messy (Bite is just the most common...the rest of its attacks would do the same effect).

2) Its surrounded by a burning aura of flame. This surely isn't enough to ensure the incineration of a common person instantly but it definitely threatens more than scrapes and bruises. You'd probably do something like a 1d6 ignores armor after a soft move (reveal an unwelcome truth as they draw to Close range) has been ignored/hasn't dealt with (which triggers the hard move of deal damage.

3) It conjures fire tornadoes from its might wing buffets. Fire tornadoes? Yeah, that sounds lethal to a common person; 1d10 ignores armor. And it obviously requires a wind-up (so this would be a soft move from the air), would have the Forceful tag, and attack multiple people in an area.


So you have a creature that can fell stone battlements with its draconic fury. You mentioned that your Fighter is just going to power through a supernatural barrage of tail slaps and wing buffets and massive claws that turn a stone edifice to rubble...via a (Vibranium, I guess?) shield? Mechanically it ignores armor, burns in proximity, crushes things to pieces/rips them apart, and sends things infinitely more sturdy than your Fighter flying.

This moment, like all others, requires the GM to Begin and End With the Fiction and Think Dangerous but also Embrace the Fantastic. I'm thinking you want to Ask Questions and Use the Answers here.

GM: "Uhhh...he rips towers apart with his might. If you want to use your shield to attempt to just brunt force your way to close to melee, then have at it. You can Defy Danger Strength, but you're not going to be able to get a 10+; the max you can get is a 7-9 (same as when a Protector helps you Defy Danger). And your shield is likely to be involved in any cost/complication here!"

In my opinion, that is very charitable. The other two options when a player presents an action declaration with all the context involved (which, in my opinion and without knowing this person, comes off as a borderline degenerate attempt to skirt fictional positioning and just play "pressure the GM to let me use favorable maths"...given that you say they're always Defying Danger Strength...color me skeptical that this is just someone hewing to genre coherency) is "sure, but you're losing that shield regardless of the outcome" or "just...no...come on, the force of the impact, and the Forceful tag, would throw you back to where you started, best case scenario, and the Messy tag would obliterate your shield!"

 

[Retreater]

1) You're using "quotes" here. Can you cite where your quoted text is in the rule-book because I can't parse that text your (seemingly?) quoting without context. Is that your own takeaway of some text or is that actual text? I can't find it in the monster section.

Sorry. That's not actual text from DW. That's my attempt to parse the suggestions I've received so far.

2) It seems likely that you're making a pretty hefty mistake here that is pretty common (and one I find myself regularly having to try to get people not to do). You're smuggling in a premise from another game (in this case classic D&D) as your mental framework while simultaneously failing to consider Dungeon World's integrated, holistic ruleset and play paradigm.

D&D is sort of the elephant in the room when it comes to fantasy RPGs, and unless I'm mistaken, it seems that the designers constructed the game from at least a jumping off point from 3.5 edition (given that there are monster designs that originated in 3.5). When something isn't explicitly stated in a game that is attempting to recreate the feel of classic D&D, I (perhaps incorrectly) use D&D to fill in the gaps. That's just where I come from. I would assume many other GMs are the same.

a) There are no rounds so you don't have to worry about rounds or scheduling of abilities based on rounds/encounters/days for your monsters.

I understand that concept, but there must be limits in place. My assumption is that DW limits the more powerful monster abilities by using soft or hard moves. I've had difficulty understanding when to use which move or how hard or soft to make them. In the example of the nasty red dragon you cited, am I to make the wing buffets a hard move, the bite a soft move, and the fiery aura an ever-present danger that the characters need to Defy Danger before any actions/moves close to the dragon?

GM: "Uhhh...he rips towers apart with his might. If you want to use your shield to attempt to just brunt force your way to close to melee, then have at it. You can Defy Danger Strength, but you're not going to be able to get a 10+; the max you can get is a 7-9 (same as when a Protector helps you Defy Danger). And your shield is likely to be involved in any cost/complication here!"

So setting limits to the maximum success a character can get is something a GM can do?