Medieval weapons: why so many? And how do they differ?

Bilharzia

Fish Priest
A windlass crossbow can go over 1000lbs draw weight quite easily. It does not need anywhere near the strength of a 200lb longbow.

Your mistake is comparing the power of the bows by using draw weight only, there are many other factors, draw length being one of the most important. Longbows have much longer draw length compared to a crossbow, which means it can put more energy into the arrow with a similar draw weight crossbow.

Training to use longbows took years and years of practice to the extent that you were deforming your spine to use the most powerful bows. This was not the case with a crossbow.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

aramis erak

Legend
A windlass crossbow [...]
Takes months to years of drill to be reloaded effectively in battle. Those 1000# draw windlass set crossbows need plenty of practice to be able to do it effectively, especially under fire.

Plus, one must reset the windlass to use it again. Not fast.
 

why not just all swords? What benefit does a battleaxe or warhammer or mace have over a good old longsword? What about longsword vs. great sword? Axe vs hammer? Sword vs axe? Etc.

Since you've brought up war hammers, I feel the need to mention the fact that there's two very distinct types of war hammer. There's the maul, which is your standard fantasy heavy war hammer that looks kind of like a sledgehammer, and there's also the lucerne hammer (and other similar long warhammers), which is basically a halberd with a hammer head in place of the axe blade. Both had the advantage over blades that they were less likely to ricochet off of metal armor. IIRC the long handled warhammers had the advantage of being able to easily punch straight through armor if the wielder got a clean shot, whereas a maul had the advantage of also being usable in the capacity of a regular sledgehammer
 

Bilharzia

Fish Priest
Takes months to years of drill to be reloaded effectively in battle. Those 1000# draw windlass set crossbows need plenty of practice to be able to do it effectively, especially under fire.

Plus, one must reset the windlass to use it again. Not fast.

I'm sorry but most of your assumptions and conclusions are wrong. It's clear that crossbows are much slower and clumsier to use than bows, although with a goat's foot lever you are down to "only" twice as slow as a longbow (windlass is more powerful but much slower). I also agree that the power of crossbows came to equal and then exceed longbows, but much of what you have said does not agree with physics, mechanics or history.

You claim, comparing with crossbows "a similar power selfbow, it can be fired every 15 seconds or more even by novices who never held a bow before. " this is not true, unless you are talking about very light draw target bows, which it doesn't seem like you are because you say "Versus formations, which was the default situation, accuracy is far less important than rate of fire." No one is going to field armies of novices against troop formations, which is why archers were trained from childhood to use powerful longbows.

"Further, a competent archer can pull, knock, draw, and release as one swift action, taking under 3 seconds. " I think this is a bit optimistic, although not far off, I would say more like 5 seconds. I noticed you didn't include "aim" as part of that procedure, I know you say accuracy wasn't important but I question this, even for massed troops it's important especially as ranges become shorter and correspondingly your shot is more powerful at short distances and because of this aiming and accuracy becomes more significant.

An average person can be trained to use a crossbow, even a windlass, in a day, and that's being pessimistic - of course more training will improve your speed and accuracy. An average person will not be able to use a 200lb longbow in a day, it's not difficult, it's impossible. A longbow with a draw weight to be worth anything in a battle takes years to learn to use and to develop the right kind of strength, the two go hand in hand. It baffles me that you are ignoring this.

"Takes months to years of drill to be reloaded effectively in battle. Those 1000# draw windlass set crossbows need plenty of practice to be able to do it effectively, especially under fire."
Sure, and exactly the same proviso applies to bows. All the circumstances, dangers, chaos and tension of a battle applies to any weapon you are using, the same applies to bows and crossbows.

"For footmen, the crossbow was NOT a more accurate nor easier weapon to learn. "
Crossbows are easier to learn and more accurate. These two are related, from what I can tell you are ignoring the strength required to use a bow of sufficient power, despite using a 200lb longbow as an example, which is at the top end of what is likely to be in use - a bow like that would take years to develop the strength and ability to use. To draw and loose the arrow accurately of a bow like that is extremely difficult, and this is what makes aiming difficult - it is much, much easier to aim with a low draw weight bow because your body is not under that enormous tension drawing the bow. In comparison a crossbow can be aimed and loosed at ease, it can be held, aimed and tracked for very long periods without any tension, even used lying down. This makes aiming and accuracy so much easier because you don't need any where near the strength to keep the crossbow steady, you need some strength to hold it and release the bolt but there's no comparison to a longbow or any other war bow.

You are right about power being a factor with crossbows being favoured although wrong about comparing the draw weights, they are extremely misleading. Similar draw-weight crossbows are significantly less powerful than longbows because they are less efficient, this is why they needed enormous draw weights - and mechanisms like stirrups, goat's foot, windlass, cranequins, to match and then out-match the power of longbows.
 

Crossbows are easier to learn and more accurate. These two are related, from what I can tell you are ignoring the strength required to use a bow of sufficient power, despite using a 200lb longbow as an example, which is at the top end of what is likely to be in use - a bow like that would take years to develop the strength and ability to use. To draw and loose the arrow accurately of a bow like that is extremely difficult, and this is what makes aiming difficult - it is much, much easier to aim with a low draw weight bow because your body is not under that enormous tension drawing the bow. In comparison a crossbow can be aimed and loosed at ease, it can be held, aimed and tracked for very long periods without any tension, even used lying down. This makes aiming and accuracy so much easier because you don't need any where near the strength to keep the crossbow steady, you need some strength to hold it and release the bolt but there's no comparison to a longbow or any other war bow.

This was always my understanding. And that a big part of the later success of guns was that they took the crossbow's advantages even further, they don't even require the strength necessary to work a crank or a stirrup, and they're even simpler to aim. Which is why it peeves me every time I see a rulebook or module suggest that anachronistic weapons be classed in the exotic weapon category requiring a special feat and/or proficiency when the whole point of them is that anybody can pick up one and use it with a minimal amount of training, whereas the rest of the exotic weapons are things like the orc double axe or the gnome hooked hammer that nobody should ever be able to use proficiently at all, with any amount of training.
 

And that a big part of the later success of guns was that they took the crossbow's advantages even further, they don't even require the strength necessary to work a crank or a stirrup, and they're even simpler to aim. Which is why it peeves me every time I see a rulebook or module suggest that anachronistic weapons be classed in the exotic weapon category requiring a special feat and/or proficiency when the whole point of them is that anybody can pick up one and use it with a minimal amount of training,

They did the same thing in 2e with slings; wizards were unable to use crossbows (due to the training required) but were able to use slings, which would seem to take a lot more technique to be effective than a crossbow.
 

aramis erak

Legend
They did the same thing in 2e with slings; wizards were unable to use crossbows (due to the training required) but were able to use slings, which would seem to take a lot more technique to be effective than a crossbow.
Slings are not hard to use for enfilade use... an afternoon or two to get the skill down to putting bullets into an enemy formation.

I've seen dozens trained by a reenactor group I was part of (not the SCA, either). more than half could hit a 4x8' plywood sheet from 2nd base on the baseball field within the first hour.

Staff sling is easier still. Most were able to hit the plywood from the (little-league regulation) outfield fence within the hour. Lead bullets from either able to be used in enfilade vs units within a very short time.

Crossbow accuracy wasn't even that good. Bow (70#) was easily learned by teens in summer camp - more than adequate for enfilade use. But note that very few people can handle reloading a crossbow, not even a 25# SCA-legal one, while under fire. During the "Light Infantry Experiment" many were able to get authorized quick ... and the reloading of a crossbow under fire is no longer trivial difficulty.
 

Derren

Hero
Crossbow accuracy wasn't even that good. Bow (70#) was easily learned by teens in summer camp - more than adequate for enfilade use. But note that very few people can handle reloading a crossbow, not even a 25# SCA-legal one, while under fire. During the "Light Infantry Experiment" many were able to get authorized quick ... and the reloading of a crossbow under fire is no longer trivial difficulty.

Please don't confuse medieveal weapons with the toys reenactors use today.
 

Last night I was thinking about a fantasy story that I'm writing that involves a "seven samurai" group, and how to outfit them in terms of weaponry. I kind of like the idea of an assortment of weapons, but I couldn't help thinking: why not just all swords? What benefit does a battleaxe or warhammer or mace have over a good old longsword? What about longsword vs. great sword? Axe vs hammer? Sword vs axe? Etc.

These are the things I think of while gaming. I am definitely not an expert, so there will be mistakes.

A lot of warriors carried multiple weapons, probably because different weapons are good at different things.

Battleaxe: this weapon is really bad at defense. You need to use a shield. Greataxes were rarely a thing (I think huscarls often used these). In Viking sagas even berserkers used shields. Axes can dent armor more effectively than swords and are good at crippling limbs (helpfully protected by thinner armor). Axe > spear because you can chop the spear shaft. Sword > axe because a sword wielder could also use a shield.

Warhammer: this swings slowly, so it should be harder to land a hit or easier to dodge. You do not want to use it against a lightly-armored, agile warrior. On the other hand it's great at delivering energy right through armor. You might kill a person yet only dent their helmet (and even if they don't die they should be concussed). I don't understand how chainmail could provide any protection against this weapon at all... if it hits. If I were running a 4e game, I'd say a PC could take -2 to hit to target Reflex instead of AC when using a hammer. Obviously this is a bad idea if you're facing an elven archer ranger. Use it when smashing a heavily armored opponent. I guess it's also good at wrecking doors and other objects.

Mace: same issues as the warhammer. It tends to be round rather than flat, which probably has a minimal difference. I'm not entirely sure which is "better" but I think the mace is always one-handed, so use a shield: a good thing because neither weapon is good on the defense.

Sword: the ultimate sidearm, because scabbards are cool! This means you can easily carry another weapon with you. Swords are handy in "cramped" areas like inside a building, or in an alleyway. Short swords are really good in a really tightly packed formation like many Roman soldier formations. Longer swords are good at defense, especially against other swords. Swords are sharp, and can cut or stab. But swords have issues. They're not good at penetrating armor. A plate-wearing knight should not duel another plate-wearing knight with a sword (unless it's a formal duel, in which case they're both equally penalized). A sword seems best when used by a swashbuckler or a "bathrobe samurai", someone who routinely faces lightly armored or unarmored opponents in urban settings. Apparently many people were killed, retreating from battle, by sword-wielding knights.

Spear: it's longer than your opponent's weapon. The shaft is tough enough that swords can't easily cut it, so a spear-wielder should have a significant advantage over a sword-wielder. A spear isn't so useful if you're fighting by yourself, though, it's more of a formation weapon. Handy in a dungeon if you have support, except how do you turn around? I guess the spear needs a point on both ends. Spears and lances are amazing on horseback but have this bad habit of getting stuck in opponents or breaking. Also, good luck using a lance to parry anything coming from your weapon side (and you can't make a horse spin the way a human could, so that shield is only protecting half of you).

Crossbow vs longbow: longbows can be fired faster but require much more training. In most versions of D&D it doesn't cost much to become proficient with a longbow. (Indeed, a 1st-level fighter in 3e is automatically proficient with a longbow, even though that's unrealistic.)

I haven't played enough game systems to say "this is probably better" but I don't think players want to consult a giant chart every time they take a swing at something. Furthermore a system that does not properly distinguish between dodging and armor can't handle these differences effectively. You probably need a narrative system. Fate or Mutants & Masterminds could handle this, I think... although in the case of M&M, this only really works if weapons are Equipment and not Removable powers.


This was always my understanding. And that a big part of the later success of guns was that they took the crossbow's advantages even further, they don't even require the strength necessary to work a crank or a stirrup, and they're even simpler to aim. Which is why it peeves me every time I see a rulebook or module suggest that anachronistic weapons be classed in the exotic weapon category requiring a special feat and/or proficiency when the whole point of them is that anybody can pick up one and use it with a minimal amount of training, whereas the rest of the exotic weapons are things like the orc double axe or the gnome hooked hammer that nobody should ever be able to use proficiently at all, with any amount of training.

They're trying (and possibly failing) to come up with something balanced. There's an implicit formula in D&D on how to balance mundane weapons. Better weapons cost feats. D&D is not particularly realistic (for instance, there is no rule that I can quote preventing me from leaving a bow strung on a seven hour march in the rain and then immediately using it to shoot at goblins that tried to ambush my party, even though that is not remotely realistic). I consider realism to be less important than simplicity and game balance, and I believe WotC does the same.

An early firelance should be easily usable by any 14th century peasant, given minimal training, but nobody should be giving those weapons to peasants because they should be expensive. They would be so expensive that no 1st-level PC could afford one! That's another area where realism interferes with gameplay. (I think Pathfinder's gunslinger just gives you a free gun as a class feature. The gun is so expensive that, without that feature, nobody else would buy one.) Obviously firearms became more prevalent when armies could afford to lend large numbers of matchlocks or wheellocks to peasants, former criminals, and so forth, who could then use these with minimal training, which occurred in whatever century that doesn't really apply to anachronistic D&D. Then there's the accuracy problem, which I think Paizo really messed up on. (An unrifled firearm is far less accurate than a bow, but gunslingers are actually more "accurate" because the ability to completely ignore armor is effectively giving them a massive bonus to hit.) The lack of accuracy makes the firearm an army weapon, not an adventurer's weapon. A weapon that acts like a crossbow, but is far less accurate, shouldn't require a special feat, but the player whose character uses it would be complaining about how weak it is, how it takes 15 seconds plus to reload, and it doesn't work when it rains (unlike bows... in D&D) without giving them a hero point or something, and so forth.
 
Last edited:

Warhammer: this swings slowly, so it should be harder to land a hit or easier to dodge. You do not want to use it against a lightly-armored, agile warrior. On the other hand it's great at delivering energy right through armor. You might kill a person yet only dent their helmet (and even if they don't die they should be concussed). I don't understand how chainmail could provide any protection against this weapon at all... if it hits. If I were running a 4e game, I'd say a PC could take -2 to hit to target Reflex instead of AC when using a hammer. Obviously this is a bad idea if you're facing an elven archer ranger. Use it when smashing a heavily armored opponent. I guess it's also good at wrecking doors and other objects.

Mace: same issues as the warhammer. It tends to be round rather than flat, which probably has a minimal difference. I'm not entirely sure which is "better" but I think the mace is always one-handed, so use a shield: a good thing because neither weapon is good on the defense.

Maces tend to be smaller, and have a rounder shape, so that you can swing it at a variety of angles. This makes it a little more versatile a weapon. A knight on horseback could ride past you (a footman) and strike you with the mace like he was bowling, or playing polo.

Compare to a hammer, which is designed to be swung one way, on a very specific axis. A hammer swing that glances or hits with the flat is unlikely to pierce armor, and may even disarm the wielder as the hammer's momentum works against the wielder, twisting the weapon out of their hands. If the hammer hits, it is going to hit harder because the weight is arranged in a cylinder so the maximum amount of weight is brought to bear.

Sword: the ultimate sidearm, because scabbards are cool! This means you can easily carry another weapon with you. Swords are handy in "cramped" areas like inside a building, or in an alleyway. Short swords are really good in a really tightly packed formation like many Roman soldier formations. Longer swords are good at defense, especially against other swords. Swords are sharp, and can cut or stab. But swords have issues. They're not good at penetrating armor. A plate-wearing knight should not duel another plate-wearing knight with a sword (unless it's a formal duel, in which case they're both equally penalized). A sword seems best when used by a swashbuckler or a "bathrobe samurai", someone who routinely faces lightly armored or unarmored opponents in urban settings. Apparently many people were killed, retreating from battle, by sword-wielding knights.

Knights in full plate did use swords, but you are right, trying to slice or stab through your opponent's armor is pointless. The point of the duel was more to gain control over your opponent, get him on the ground, where you could then stick that sword in a vulnerable part of the armor. Half-swording (Gripping the sword blade in the middle of the blade with your off hand) was a valuable technique to guide the sword to those vulnerable gaps. Like wrestling with crowbars.

Spear: it's longer than your opponent's weapon. The shaft is tough enough that swords can't easily cut it, so a spear-wielder should have a significant advantage over a sword-wielder. A spear isn't so useful if you're fighting by yourself, though, it's more of a formation weapon. Handy in a dungeon if you have support, except how do you turn around? I guess the spear needs a point on both ends. Spears and lances are amazing on horseback but have this bad habit of getting stuck in opponents or breaking. Also, good luck using a lance to parry anything coming from your weapon side (and you can't make a horse spin the way a human could, so that shield is only protecting half of you).

Historically the spear was the true prince of weapons. This is why there were endless variations. The power of the reach of the spear cannot be overstated; a sword wielder who tries to knock the head of a spear out of the way with his sword has also in all probability put his own body within reach of the spear, while the spear wielder is still safe from the sword. The spear wielder begins with an offensive and defensive advantage, that the sword wielder must overcome before he can do anything. Sure, if the sword wielder manages it, he can take the advantage... but that's IF.

Any younger siblings who have gotten in fights with their older siblings and been hopelessly held at bay by the older sibling's superior reach (which is totally cheating, why don't you stop doing that and let me fight you) know the injustice of this all too well.

The problem with this is... that's not fun. Swords are cool. Axes are cool. Maces are cool. Giant, double-headed scimitars are cool. Spears are cool too, but not so cool we want everyone running around with one. But if we were playing with historical accuracy, that's what would be happening. Polearms for days. Your bad-ass sword master would be overspecialized and niche. Skirmishes would largely be decided not by the skill of the combatants, but how many combatants each side had, and how many each side was willing to lose in the fight. Five valiant heroes fighting off a swarm of opponents and coming out alive on the other side is fantasy, whether magic is a part of the setting or not.
 

Remove ads

AD6_gamerati_skyscraper

Remove ads

Upcoming Releases

Top